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View Full Version : Time to be frank with each other - PLEASE READ



CountryFlowers
10-14-2009, 09:47 AM
First, I would like to apologize to everyone who sent me emails over the last few weeks - especially last week - I somehow managed to lock myself out of my own email account, but that's all fixed now and I have read everyone's emails.

Second, Large - you're scaring the newbies.

Third, there has been a lot of concern about racially degrading remarks on a particular thread - terms like good ol' boy and oreo.

I can't speak for everyone else's intentions, but I realize that when Large uses the word oreo he's trying to use it in an abstract sense, but apparently that still offends people. (The reason I realize this is that Large and I have communicated about this before and he explained his position to me. Perhaps he might consider explaining that to the rest of you?)

Also, when Davide used the term "good ol' boy" that set people off, too.

Personally, I'm not offended by either of the terms in the context with which they were used. BUT (and this is a big but here, folks!) if the word were used in the context implying racial inferiority or some hateful, spiteful tone, then I'd be offended.

Stating that someone is an oreo because he's bi racial or "black on the outside, white on the inside" is borderline with me, the meaning can be taken in any manner. Such a remark in and of itself doesn't mean that the person is inferior or superior because of his race, but it does imply that the person has the looks of one race and the charactaristics of a culture not generally associated with that race or ethnicity.

The same with davide's remark - personally I didn't see his remark in the negative light that others did, but again that remark is borderline.

I don't want to impede anyone's freedom of speech, but I don't want people being offended, either.

So the choice belongs to you all whether you want to grow a thicker skin or have me ban the use of those words.

If I see remarks that are blatantly castigating another race, those are out of here. But if the remark is borderline, do you all really want me to ban people who use them rather than trying to understand the message that the people are trying to present? I will listen to your feed back - I will also say that we're all adults here and should be able to use less offensive language of our own volition, I shouldn't have to ban the use of certain words, but if I have to I will.

While you're considering that, I'm going to let you in on something that I did. I put a particular "newbie" who wasn't really a newbie in "the 3 day time out chair" for picking fights. The purpose was for him to cool it and wasn't going to be a permenant ban, although given his past I would have every right to have banned him permenantly. I like to give people a chance, though.

So the participant apparently retaliated to the 3 day suspension by creating a new user name which was a racial slur. That action resulted in that particular user being banned permenanty.

The party in question apparently thinks that Sandra and Large complained about them, but of all the notices and messages I received, neither one of those two were among the participants reporting posts or filing complaints.

I did receive numerous complaints about Sandra and Large, though. People think Large is a bully and Sandra is the b-word.

People, I am NOT your babysitter. I'm sorry if you feel that either of these two participants are awful people, but unelss they blatantly violate the user terms, they're not going to be banned. They're entitled to their opinions too.

On that note, I'm asking both of them, though, in light of all the complaints I've received to tone it down, whatever it is they're doing that seems to be offending people. Maybe use different verbage or something, but if you could soften your approaches with people then it might help cut the mounting contention. (Large, this is where your scaring the newbies comes in to play. They aren't used to your style and it catches them off guard.)

This forum is a wonderful place for Chieftain readers to come together and socialize with each other. The Chieftain enjoys the different ideas that participants bring and opinions that you share, but the bickering really casts a negative air about the place.

On someone else's idea I created the bicker board for people to bring their bickering and inflammatory remarks so that you have a place to vent when you need to. Let's remember to vent there and keept he bickering off the rest of the boards so that we're not scaring the newbies away.

In closing, for those of you who don'tk now what newbies are, they're the new participants.

If you think of it in family terms - they're your new baby brothers and sisters, so please make sure that you are a good influence for them and play nice.

:)

Charlotte
10-14-2009, 11:01 AM
Hi Country, I read the posts everyday, however I am in an unique situation. I babysit my twin grandsons five days a week in Castle Rock. I log on during the day on my son's computer to read the Chieftain and read the posts on the community forum, just don't have the time to voice an opinion, on weekends I'm back in Pueblo taking care of my husband and home so am very busy. I enjoy everyone's opinion, being a newbie, I haven't been offended by anyone, but mt posts don.t seem to sit too well, so I am cooling for a while.
Take care, enjoy the sunny days this week.

Bob Nattering
10-14-2009, 11:03 AM
CF

I personally prefer to see a wide variety of opinion and view points represented in the forum. For my part, I don't take offense easily and have never seen anything posted on the forum that gave me any personal grief. On the other hand, I appreciate the need for keeping the forum at a level that would be considered non-offensive to a vast majority. That's a delicate balance that I'm glad is in your hands and not mine.

That said, I just wonder how many complaints you would receive about Large if he were less informed on the issues and presented arguments that were less compelling. The knowledge of Large's presence might even make me think twice about posting an opinion on an issue where I was not well informed or had not totally thought out my position. That's because it's not a good feeling to realize that I brought a knife to a gunfight. It's not because there is this evil character out there waiting to call me names and hurt my feelings. I just need to make sure I bring a big gun.

CountryFlowers
10-14-2009, 12:27 PM
As much as everyone wants me to and have even laughably been accused of doing, I won't dictate people's personalities on these forums. People act the way they act and as long as they don't violate the user terms in the process then I won't do anything about it unless I absolutely have to.

However, if a participant has been banned and they come back, I will watch them more closely and will have less patience with them, and quite reasonably so.

This forum is one of the better forums on the net, I'd like to keep it that way.

Charlotte, I think that what you're experiencing is "newbie syndrome". That's when you're new and haven't yet received the trust and respect of the other forum members. It seems that many participants here are a little shy about welcoming new people which can make new people feel a bit like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole.

But once you get to know everyone and they know you, I think you'll find that this is, for the most part, a good group of people who would give the shirts off of their neighbor's backs to help you. Don't be shy, jump on into some conversations. Be forewarned, though, that people here are opinionated and forthright, they don't always beat around the bush, they'll just come right out and say what they have to say then crack jokes about it later, but I believe sincerely that they mean no harm whatsoever.

;)

Bob Nattering
10-14-2009, 01:13 PM
The following quotations seemed to have some relationship to this thread:

People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. Abbie Hoffman

A true friend stabs you in the front. Oscar Wilde

Race, like sex, is a subject on which it is near impossible to tell the truth. In each, desire, self-interest and self-image make the truth inconvenient to share not only with strangers (who may, legitimately or not, be viewed as opponents) but also with members of one’s own group, and, indeed, with oneself. David Mamet

It's only words...unless they're true. David Mamet

Note: I'm not recommending the Abbie Hoffman view point, but it does seem to have a presence.

CountryFlowers
10-14-2009, 03:01 PM
Bob, those are hilarious! Thanks for the laugh!

I hope others will chime in on this topic, too. This is everyone's opportunity to be frank with me before I go into the MPP (Moderator Protection Program).

davide
10-14-2009, 03:46 PM
Do you disagree that there are white folks out there that are racist ? What , exactly was racist about my post ?. I am "white" just so you know. Not that should have anything to do with anything. Where I live I routinely see hate groups. It exists, and many of these people are on the far right of the GOP. That is my point. What is wrong with an honest conversation about racism ?

Bob Nattering
10-14-2009, 04:23 PM
Davide,

I did want to mention one small thing about that post of yours that I almost missed. You said, "They speak of receding from the Union." I'm told that's what could happen to California in a gigantic earthquake. While I think those folks can be a little bit out in left field sometimes, I am certainly not one that favors seeing them recede out into the Pacific.

CountryFlowers
10-14-2009, 04:27 PM
Do you disagree that there are white folks out there that are racist ?
Racism comes in all shapes, sizes and colors, but that's not the issue of what I posted to you. None of that is welcome here, I don't care who it's from. I won't even put up with a black person calling another one the n-word or using it beyond discussing it's meaning in an intelligent manner.


What , exactly was racist about my post ?. I am "white" just so you know.It doesn't matter to me what color you are, your remark was highly offensive - especially if you're white. You sound like you hate white people.

Let's take a look at your remark, and just for zingers read it and substitute the word white with black or yellow or red and in so doing consider how it appears to people on the outside looking in:



The way I see it 20 to 23% of the country will never vote for Obama and will always vote against him regardless of the issue or decision. These are the fringe, butt hurt, partisan haters that cannot relate to a black president in office. They will skew every poll, interrupt every town hall meeting and spread every anti Obama rumor they can .They are angry and frustrated. They speak of receding from the union, being patriots and blah , blah, blah.
What they are is white, insecure, paranoid and ignorant.
The entire tone of your post is rather negative towards whites. Are people reading that going to know you're white? No.

If you were black and you were writing that about blacks, would the black community reading that know you are black? No.

If the Pueblo Chieftain were to ask people their race upon sign up so that it could posted with your avatar or something so that readers could know what race you are, would that be an appropriate thing? Certainly not! What do you suppose the reaction would be if that were the case? People would be accusing the Pueblo Chieftain of racism.

No race should degrade another race, nor should they degrade themselves or even allow it. There's no dignity in that!

Could you have made your point without a racial reference, by chance?


What is wrong with an honest conversation about racism ?

Nothing, if there are no racial-slur overtones, and if the topic warrants such discussion. However the topic at hand wasn't about racism, it was about Obama winning the peace prize, and you interjected some things that could have caused a lot of trouble.

Racial tensions are tough right now, there's no doubt about that, racism was a big part of Obama's campaign for office.

For that reason I think it wise to discuss racism from a more objective standpoint and leave the slurs and inferences completely out of the picture.

Due to the delicate nature of the subject, I'm not so sure it should even be discussed at all, but that's up to you all, not me. All I'm saying is that if you want to discuss racism, be objective, be polite, and don't use racial slurrish types of terms in the first person. Discuss the term and what it means and discuss the various context in which they are used if you feel the need, but remarks like, "they're [whatever color], insecure, paranoid..." are not appropriate.

MP2009
10-14-2009, 06:17 PM
Racism comes in all shapes, sizes and colors, but that's not the issue of what I posted to you. None of that is welcome here, I don't care who it's from. I won't even put up with a black person calling another one the n-word or using it beyond discussing it's meaning in an intelligent manner.

It doesn't matter to me what color you are, your remark was highly offensive - especially if you're white. You sound like you hate white people.

Let's take a look at your remark, and just for zingers read it and substitute the word white with black or yellow or red and in so doing consider how it appears to people on the outside looking in:


The entire tone of your post is rather negative towards whites. Are people reading that going to know you're white? No.

If you were black and you were writing that about blacks, would the black community reading that know you are black? No.

If the Pueblo Chieftain were to ask people their race upon sign up so that it could posted with your avatar or something so that readers could know what race you are, would that be an appropriate thing? Certainly not! What do you suppose the reaction would be if that were the case? People would be accusing the Pueblo Chieftain of racism.

No race should degrade another race, nor should they degrade themselves or even allow it. There's no dignity in that!

Could you have made your point without a racial reference, by chance?



Nothing, if there are no racial-slur overtones, and if the topic warrants such discussion. However the topic at hand wasn't about racism, it was about Obama winning the peace prize, and you interjected some things that could have caused a lot of trouble.

Racial tensions are tough right now, there's no doubt about that, racism was a big part of Obama's campaign for office.

For that reason I think it wise to discuss racism from a more objective standpoint and leave the slurs and inferences completely out of the picture.

Due to the delicate nature of the subject, I'm not so sure it should even be discussed at all, but that's up to you all, not me. All I'm saying is that if you want to discuss racism, be objective, be polite, and don't use racial slurrish types of terms in the first person. Discuss the term and what it means and discuss the various context in which they are used if you feel the need, but remarks like, "they're [whatever color], insecure, paranoid..." are not appropriate.

CF,

There's a world of difference between stating fact, or a believed fact, and making a racist statement and that is why I have trouble with the way you are making decisions about banning or punishing posters.

It is one thing to say that 20 - 23% of whites have racial prejudices and would never support a black president, and quite another to say that most whites are productive workers and most blacks are lazy and living on welfare. We both know that the second statement is racist, but you are interpreting the first statement to also be racist and hateful. As far as I can see, the first statement is not racist or hateful, especially if it is true or close to the truth. And quite to the contrary the first statement doesn't imply either a negative or a positive about any race. Would the fact that the polls showed that Obama got roughly 80% of the black votes in the last election be racist? You seem to imply that a fact is racist and that this would be a racially motivated comment.

On the other hand, you think there is nothing racist about Large's use of the term "Oreo" and some of his other comments. You are definitely wrong, that is clearly a racist comment.

I'm not even going to go into some of Sandra's comments, which I also think can be generally seen to be more than borderline racially motivated, despite her objections to the contrary. I just don't respond to her comments directly because I've seen people banned from the board for pointing out what seems obvious to many of us. Besides, she has already said she put me on her ignore list anyway.

CountryFlowers
10-14-2009, 07:14 PM
There's a world of difference between stating fact, or a believed fact, and making a racist statement and that is why I have trouble with the way you are making decisions about banning or punishing posters.

I have already explained my position on this, so you may as well stop trying to twist things out of context.


On the other hand, you think there is nothing racist about Large's use of the term "Oreo" and some of his other comments. You are definitely wrong, that is clearly a racist comment.

There's such a thing as context, MP2009. From what I saw, he wasn't trying to be derogatory, he was making an abstract remark and using the word "oreo" as a reference.

However, if you read my opening post, you'll notice that I have dealt with that by asking that people don't use those words any more. If people continue to use that word anyway, then I'll have to ban it. Problem solved, but I'm expecting people to be grown up enough to stop using the word on their own first.

I know you really want me to ban large, for some reason that would just really make your day, but I have no intention of banning him, so get over it and learn to get along with people.


I'm not even going to go into some of Sandra's comments, which I also think can be generally seen to be more than borderline racially motivated, despite her objections to the contrary.

Then don't bother to bring the subject up. I've never seen her post anything racially derogatory.

I don't know what this obsession is that you have with her and why you're posting the vicious things about her that you're posting, but that kind of aggression is not welcome here and while she hasn't complained about it, I see it for myself and I am warning you to stop it.


I just don't respond to her comments directly because I've seen people banned from the board for pointing out what seems obvious to many of us. Besides, she has already said she put me on her ignore list anyway.

No you haven't because I'm the one who does the banning here, and I've never banned anyone for any such thing nor would I.

The only reason anyone here gets banned is for violating the user terms and forum rules. Period.

Furthermore, don't try to make yourself look like some innocent person saying you don't respond to her comments when you just posted some unprovoked off the wall crazy things about her on another topic. I can see right through that and I'm not one bit impressed by it.

edl
10-14-2009, 07:46 PM
any guess on the origin of this post, which i feel to be more degrading than any discussed in this post?


Why does this seem like another case of a minority member taking advantage of his group to scam the people who depends on him first and then the public who funds his actions . . ? Lawrence Hernandez is not the first (of many) who has used his minority status to gain the confidence of the public in one manner or another, just to be later found out to be no more than a well educated con man or Political Charlatan . . what the Hell is going on here? Are the minorities who support these clowns that dumb?

it really doesn't matter to me if i get banned from this board by stating the following; i have a life and career to keep me busy outside this small little world. having said that, i think CountryFlowers is willing to overlook certain established members indiscretions on this board. i reported the same via the "report post" option that apparently goes to someone else besides CountryFlowers. i find it interesting that others are complaining about certain "protected" individuals as well.

imo, my limited experience on this board revealed far too much derisive behavior for my liking that some folk apparently look forward to day in and day out.

Sandra
10-14-2009, 08:18 PM
To those of you who think I'm a b-word - Why, yes I am! Thank you for noticing, and don't you ever f-bomb-ing forget it!!!! If you do I'll be happy to remind you.

MP2009, you're too small to get to me. Go play in a litter box somewhere or something.

I'm not bothered by Large saying oreo but it seems to me that the one who's been saying it most recently and trying to make out like it was Large was that xyzzy person, but I can't find his post to quote it so maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not bothered that davide said good old boys, either, but I am bothered by the context he used for white people and did report that post.

CF I agree with your idea about us not using those words and I will make sure that I don't use them either. I don't think I do anyway, but I agree to abide by your request.

And if you want to ban me for my strong words here, go ahead - I make no apologies.

Lastly, It seems that when that xyzzy person signed up is when certain other participants came back out of the blue and started their BS. We seemed to be getting along relatively well until then, with the exception of the thing with davide - but I have a feeling that's settled now, so no worries there.

And to those of you complaining about Large - look, if anyone has any right to complain about Large it's me. Do you see me doing it? NO.

Large has called me some filthy names in the past (like roundheels...lmao!) and has said some rather strong and disturbing things to me. I even complained about him too, at one point, but then I decided to use a little wit in my responses to him when he acted stupid and I would post that picture of a gorilla beating his chest whenever he started acting overbearing towards me.

He and I seem to get along pretty well now, I think he's toned down quite a bit with me for the most part, which I really do appreciate.

I don't always agree with his opinions, I know he's strong minded, but I still appreciate his opinions anyway and besides he's been here longer than any of us and I think this forum wouldn't be the same without his input.

I'd be very bored here, myself, if Large ever stopped posting here.

I felt so bad when that place downtown blew up and someone he knew was killed by that. You know, I was really worried about him and missed him while he was away, and the forum didn't have the same pizzazz, either.

I consider large to be an online friend - he's almost like family. I know he can be rough around the edges, but I also think he really cares about this city and the people in it, and I don't believe for even a second that he'd harm a hair on anyone's head. He wouldn't dare - he's too well known around town. lol!

Anyway I notice he hasn't posted much today - which seems odd - but anyway I'm glad that CF doesn't plan to ban him. I think if CF bans him she'd have to ban us all and I don't think the Chieftain would like that much.

As for the rest of this BS - I think people should go easy on CF - because as a webmaster myself, I can tell you that her position isn't an easy one. Balancing the rules with the junk that can go on, allowing for grey areas on a case by case basis and considering the sources from where they came - that's not always easy.

And I don't imagine that moderators enjoy having to ban anyone except spammers, because banning someone is that much less traffic visiting the site, and that kind of goes against the goal of drawing people in.

But when drawing people in, sometimes undesireables find their way.

I've had some of those on my site, but I had some favorite undesirables on mine. They kept the site busy, that's for sure, and they would tow that line, sometimes crossing just a wee bit and other times just coming close, and the entire community would respond - people seem to love controversy.

Then there were the undesirables that I wouldn't put up with - stalkers and participants who would try to scam money out of other participants and general trouble makers.

Anyway I guess what I'm trying to say is that I empathize and I love that "OH GROW UP" picture. (Joan Rivers looked so much better before her surgery!!!!!)

So anyway thanks for letting me vent and everything. I'm going to go crawl back into my bed now and try to relax and feel better.

Sandra
10-14-2009, 08:24 PM
edl what are you on about? What protected individuals are you talking about? I've been part of this forum since it began and I had no idea that there was protected individuals! Who are they?

edl
10-14-2009, 08:30 PM
if justification is being sought for banning one particular individual mentioned in this thread (taken from this boards very own "Forum Etiquette & Rules" sticky):


NO TROLLING
What is a troll? It's a person who posts something which is bound to stir people up and then sits back and watches as dozens of people jump in and start arguing.

simply do a search of this one individuals posts over time. you'll be amazed at the level of trolling this individual has got away with all because he is "entertaining" to some. quite frankly, the level of disrespect towards minorities is appalling. the hate-mongering of our own president...

the brass of the chieftain should do something about this situation. i'm done with this thread.

Sandra
10-14-2009, 08:47 PM
edl, why don't you take some time to get to know us a little bit before you go making those kinds of assertions, for crying out loud?

And WHO are you talking about? For garsh sakes, this forum has been here for years as have been some of the members, like me - if any of us were doing something to be banned we'd have been banned a long time ago!

Maybe you should get to know people and their style before passing judgment. Why is it that when someone makes a remark that someone else disagrees with they want the party they disagree with to be banned instead of just respecting the difference of opinion???

Are you a Democrat or something? Do you think that freedom of speech and opinion belong only to people that you agree with? What the frick country do you think this is, anyway?! Here's a HINT for you: we're NOT N. Korea, we're not Nazi Germany under Hitler, and we're not Russia under Stalin. Nor are we Cuba under Castro.

We don't have the freaking thought police in this country. (yet.) OK???!

Board moderators aren't babysitters or thought police. They're more like referees keeping the place free of spam, free of stalkers, and free of overly aggressive individuals like MP2009. lol! Didn't you read CF's post???

People don't get banned here for every wee thing here, although the two males who did get banned from here will occasionally log back in under other user names and claim such.

Stick around and watch things for a while and see for yourself -- it's always the same old whiney arsed people complaining about the same people over and over, it's retarded but some people don't have anything better to do, the poor poor things!

CountryFlowers
10-14-2009, 09:20 PM
Time to close this thread, I can see it's turning into something other than what I anticipated.

edl, in your complaint to me you claimed that large tried to invite you into an altercation, and I discovered that what he really did was invite you to coffee, so don't try that with me.

There are no racial slurs in the post you posted, either, I'm letting it stand.

I've already stated that I don't dictate people's personalities on these forums, so learn to get along with each other or put the ones you can't get along with on your ignore list. It's as simple as that.

We're all adults here and should be able to act like adults. If you people can't get along with each other then maybe I should ban you all and let the Chieftain either close this forum down or fill it with all new participants. Would you like that?

Either get used to the fact that not everyone here shares the same opinion and learn to get along with each other, or find somewhere else to visit. I don't want to hear it anymore.

If you all can't stop using certain words on your own, then I will ban the words. I really don't like censorship and it's just too bad that people can't seem to grow up enough to know when to let things go or how to show some common courtesy in the things they say, or that they can't just let people be who they are.

Grow some thick skin and learn to take text into context.

When I see people saying that a particular race is something negative, I'll act on it. But when I see a remark in the context of conversation - and Large's remark was borderline but he wasn't saying that minorities are paranoid and whatever else davide had said about whites, for example - he was trying to drive home a point.

There is a fine line between racism and thoughts and words that deal with races and ethnicities. For garsh sakes, it's getting to the point where no one can say a blasted thing without someone else complaining about how "offensive" it is.

I'm not banning Large or Sandra and that's final, unless I am told by Administrative staff to do so. They've both been here since this board began, we have no plans to get rid of either of them. They're not any more protected than anyone else here.

The other two parties who were banned from here were banned for some serious TOS violations, and at least one of them will continue to be banned if he tries to return under various other user names because of the seriousness of his violations.
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I am coming back to correct an error. I wrote, "edl, in your complaint to me you claimed that large tried to invite you into an altercation, and I discovered that what he really did was invite you to coffee, so don't try that with me."

It was actually Marc whom Large invited to coffee, and that invite was the only invite on the entire thread in question that I saw coming from large, so I found no indications whatsoever of large inviting anyone to any kind of an altercation.