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BornInPueblo
09-04-2007, 09:31 PM
Does anyone else here think that we need to start thinking about limiting the total human population of the world in some manner? I think that it can be fairly stated that since the world is finite, there exists an upper limit to how many humans can occupy it. In fact, it might even be stated that it would be best to decrease the total population. It has long been observed that the more industrialized nations tend to do that without adopting any policy to enforce such a concept. China, of course, has the one couple, one child policy. Do you have any thoughts on this and perhaps any suggestions on what kind of policies/theories would be fair and equitable and/or supportable by the general population and authoritative bodies, ie, political, social, and religious bodies. No fair bashing Catholics, who generally do not follow the official line on no birth control or bashing certain cultures or races for multiplying like rabbits.

McGowdog
09-05-2007, 11:30 AM
"No fair bashing Catholics, who generally do not follow the official line on no birth control or bashing certain cultures or races for multiplying like rabbits."

Well, if we don't do this then someone is going to have to come along and get rid of those who already exist. If you can't bash those for forbidding the use of birth control and you can't bash those for overtaxing the welfare system, then what can we do besides go Republican? I think that would at least slow down the rate of population growth. That and stricter penalties for crimes, like: "Death Penalty for parking tickets".

large
09-05-2007, 12:06 PM
Why sure . . I'm all in favor of "Retroactive Birth Control" where we take the weak, the sick, the uneducated, the criminals and the old out and shoot 'em . .

Have committees where a man and his wife go to be tested to qualify them to have a child and the tests would include Ancestry, IQ and ability to be an excellent parent . . If you don't pa$$ you're automatically sterilized . .

and we "save" no one . . Strictly survival of the fittest . . .

And, of course, I want to be on the Committee for the retroactive Birth control as well as the one deciding who gets to have a child . .

Or we could just Nuke the third world . .

Whichever . . .

McGowdog
09-05-2007, 02:56 PM
We'd better do that before we become the third world. Either that or allow 40th tri-mester abortions!

BornInPueblo
09-05-2007, 10:10 PM
I don't think this is the most immediate problem we face. The earth is certainly able to accomodate more of us for at least the short term. I was more interested in seeing if someone could think of some innovative ways to accomplish this through reasonably well thought out means. It will be a very difficult task to accomplish when population really becomes a concern sometime in the future. Of course, there are population problems already in some areas of the world, especially in some African and Asian nations.

I also wasn't thinking that we would artificially eliminate people who are already here and make the solution more birth planning oriented. I don't know how that could be reasonably implemented, but in some cases and in some countries perhaps it could be tax controlled to some extent. I can see where that would be a problem, because if we make lower income people pay more taxes for larger families, it will only make an already bad situation worse. Richer families would likely ignore tax incentives one way or the other unless the penalties were really significant to their income. I do think one of the solutions that might have to actually be implemented once we get to the "when push comes to shove" time for some kind of controls, that moms and pops will have to actually be sterilized after the birth of X number of children.

large
09-06-2007, 07:02 AM
Of course, there are population problems already in some areas of the world, especially in some African and Asian nations.

Most notably, the Muslim Population seems to be breeding like flies . . according to several demography studies. the populations in Muslim dominated countries is increasing twofold every ten years . .

Basically, the problem used to be known as "Screwing yourself away from the dinner table" . . I'm sure there's a P C term for it . .

And, after a couple of trips to the recent State Fair, it's pretty damned plain that the gene pool is getting really shallow . . From the impression I got, Fat, stupid and pregnant seems to be the current "In" thing . . more often than not, displayed by the same person . .

Actually, in a real logical discussion, you will find that births are down in western Core nations, at least among the American and Europeans, but birth rates are astronomical in the gap nations as well as in the immigrant enclaves that are home to them in the core countries. The Muslim Immigrants in Britain have a birth rate almost 7 times that of the native Brits. It's not the core countries that need birth control, but obviously, the gaps . . You're trying to solve a problem where there is none . . implement solutions where the problem begins . . in the Gap countries . .

Zen Curmudgeon
09-06-2007, 09:35 PM
Most notably, the Muslim Population seems to be breeding like flies . . according to several demography studies. the populations in Muslim dominated countries is increasing twofold every ten years . . So where did you get your numbers? If you are attempting to conflate religion and population, pony up the sources. Point to these "several demography studies." On the face of it, I think your post is ******** - but I do appreciate the chance to see the sources you cite. Who knows? I might agree with you.

ZC

BornInPueblo
09-07-2007, 02:09 AM
So where did you get your numbers? If you are attempting to conflate religion and population, pony up the sources. Point to these "several demography studies." On the face of it, I think your post is ******** - but I do appreciate the chance to see the sources you cite. Who knows? I might agree with you.

ZC

I'd like to see them also. I can believe that some of the richer and smaller Muslim countries like Bahrain, UAR, and Kuwait might be doing something closer to that, but it certainly isn't happening in Iraq, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Iran, Egypt, Pakistan, Algeria, Libya, and the rest of the larger Muslim countries.

And to repeat myself, I'd still like to see if any of us can come up with some innovative ideas about how we can limit human population growth and at the same time find a way to do it that is fair and equitable to most of the people living on this earth. We all share a limited, finite space and a limited, finite amount of resources. You all know that we, as Americans and to an almost equal amount the Europeans and Japanese, are taking more resources from the world than most other people in this world get an oppurtunity to share with us. Even as we do this, we still have people in America and in Europe and in Japan who live their lives in a way that we would find intolerable and insufficient enough that we could not possibly want to ever find ourselves having to experience it. I'm not going to blame them for being born into such a life, nor am I willing to think we deserved our better life because we were born into it. Granted, there are those who sink lower and those who rise higher based on their own lack of efforts or their strength of efforts. The fact remains that if the world has X amount of resources to spread over Y amount of population, a greater Y will have less X, and a lesser Y will have more X.

large
09-07-2007, 07:24 AM
Back to your bedpan, boy . . You must be part of that shallow gene pool . . Are you fat, pregnant and/or stupid?

While I was quoting Charles Krauthammer, whom you contend you're smarter than, I'll follow through. And not with something from Wikkipedia either.

And before you start belittling anyone, remember Krauthammer was a Licensed Medical Doctor before he became a pundit, editor and published author . . You? None of the above . . .

But, I will provide a Bibliography for you. However, I don't believe you have the intelligence to read or understand it, because it won't be in third grade English or posted on Wikipedia . .

Are you sure you ever had a Nursing degree? Comprehension was a requirement, and there's indications that you are a little shaky on that . .

As far as the "Guilt" of using more resources than those people in the gap countries do . . "Globalization" may eventually level the playing field, but probably not. Simply because Human nature causes some people to strive to be better, smarter, richer than others . . and to do that, they need to use other people to achieve this . . and the poorer the better . .

Especially in the area of "Basic Industries" which will become more dangerous and costly to obtain to support the advancing technology of the world . .

E.G:5500 years ago, copper laid around on the surface of the earth, in almost pure nodules. Today? Have you ever been to West Jordan, Utah?

The smart and the rich will not go underground and risk their lives for this . . they will send someone who values life less and needs money more . .

Also, Governments create conditions conducive to growth or lack of it . . Freed of governmental restriction, people will strive to create better living conditions for themselves and their neighbor . . for individual reward.

The American Government, while cussed frequently, is still the best for allowing incubation of ideas and technology. If not, then why have all the other countries in the world done little more than copy the technology the American Engineers have invented . . In the 20th Century there was very little "Parallel Engineering" occurring . .

Listen carefully to the lyrics of John Lennon's song "Imagine", the liberal anthem . . It's what you're basically discussing . . but it's just a song, not reality . .

BornInPueblo
09-07-2007, 09:34 PM
List of Muslim majority countries in highest to lowest population, followed by number of years in which the population will double:

Indonesia 60
Pakistan 38
Bangladesh 42
Nigeria 31
Egypt 40
Turkey 55
Iran 52
Sudan 32
Algeria 46
Morocco 58
Iraq 38
Uzbekistan 48
Afghanistan 18
Malaysia 41
Saudi Arabia 31
Yemen 24
Syria 28
Kazakhstan 98
Niger 20
Senegal 29
Mali 23
Chad 24
Tunisia 65
Guinea 32
Somalia 24
Azerbaijan 93
Tajikistan 46
Libya 36
Jordan 23
Sierra Leone 34
Kyrgyzstan 63
Turkmenistan 53
Eritrea 22
United Arab Emirates 25
Lebanon 66
Albania 122
Mauritania 28
Kuwait 29
Oman 36
Gambia 27
Qatar 33
Djibouti 40
Bahrain 39
Comoros 28
Brunei 34
Maldives 40


Source: United Nations World Population Prospects: 2006 revision – Table A.8

Zen Curmudgeon
09-07-2007, 09:55 PM
Back to your bedpan, boy . . You must be part of that shallow gene pool . . Are you fat, pregnant and/or stupid?

While I was quoting Charles Krauthammer, whom you contend you're smarter than, I'll follow through. And not with something from Wikkipedia either. Oh, so you can't back it up. Thought so.

Listen, could you please start tagging your posts "faith-based" when you're just repeating something someone else said? It would save the rest of us the trouble of treating your posts as factual.

BTW, Charles Krauthammer (http://www.time.com/time/columnist/krauthammer/article/0,9565,559573,00.html) was trained as a psychiatrist, not a demographer, and he quit medicine in 1978 to work for the Carter administration.

And, really, as often as you mention it, you should know that "Wikipedia" has only 1 "k".

ZC

BornInPueblo
09-08-2007, 01:49 AM
But, I will provide a Bibliography for you. However, I don't believe you have the intelligence to read or understand it, because it won't be in third grade English or posted on Wikipedia . .

Besides having the gift of narcissism and the tongue of a self appointed aristocrat, I'm worried that you may be getting too old to actually hold a useful conversation with anyone else. Were you intending to honor us with a "Bibliography" at some future point in time? Maybe you just carried on with your stupid and random wanderings until you lost any sense of being able to present something meaningful or coherent and forgot your train of thought. My worst fear is that you are in the early stages of Alzheimer's. You better get a checkup.

Well, never mind the "Bibliography," it doesn't mean much because no matter what your guy had to say or what his credentials are, I have already debunked his statistics.

crumudgeon
09-08-2007, 05:32 AM
The solution to this problem lies in video games. More access to television, electricity and Nintendos, X Boxes, etcetera. The more violent the games are, then the more time men and boys spend late at night interacting with them rather than with their wives, girlfriends and any member of the opposite sex. Also, the gaming programers could develop a Jihad game where the heros annihilate the infidels.

Zen Curmudgeon
09-08-2007, 09:18 AM
Also, the gaming programers could develop a Jihad game where the heros annihilate the infidels.There's a fundamentalist version of that - See here (http://www.eternalforces.com/features.aspx) for the details.


LEFT BEHIND: Eternal Forces is a real-time strategy game based upon the best-selling LEFT BEHIND book series created by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins. Join the ultimate fight of Good against Evil, commanding Tribulation Forces or the Global Community Peacekeepers!
Copies of this game were intended to be sent to Iraq for the entertainment of the troops, but the Pentagon thought better of the idea
and pulled the plug (http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/08/dod-stops-plan-.html).


"Left Behind: Eternal Forces" was inspired by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins' best-selling book series about the battle of Armageddon, in which believers of Jesus Christ fight the Antichrist.

The game has inspired controversy among freedom of religion advocates since it was released last year.

"It's a horrible game," said the Rev. Timothy Simpson of the Christians Alliance for Progress. "You either kill or covert the other side. This is exactly what the Osama bin Ladens of the world have portrayed us."ZC

BornInPueblo
09-09-2007, 05:18 AM
The solution to this problem lies in video games. More access to television, electricity and Nintendos, X Boxes, etcetera. The more violent the games are, then the more time men and boys spend late at night interacting with them rather than with their wives, girlfriends and any member of the opposite sex. Also, the gaming programers could develop a Jihad game where the heros annihilate the infidels.

Unfortunately, "men and boys" only have to be "interacting" once every nine months or less to produce the same population increases. No amount of video games are going to make the "men and boys" want to have sex that infrequently. For every one of the "men and boys" who might be so distracted there are plenty of "men and boys" willing to take their place with their wives, girlfriends, and any member of the opposite sex. And, doubtless, there are no amount of such wives, girlfriends, and members of the opposite sex who will be willing to accept such attention from anyone willing to pay them such attention. Let the gamers voluntarily drop out of the gene pool! Who cares?

large
09-11-2007, 07:34 AM
Oh, so you can't back it up. Thought so.

Listen, could you please start tagging your posts "faith-based" when you're just repeating something someone else said? It would save the rest of us the trouble of treating your posts as factual.

BTW, Charles Krauthammer (http://www.time.com/time/columnist/krauthammer/article/0,9565,559573,00.html) was trained as a psychiatrist, not a demographer, and he quit medicine in 1978 to work for the Carter administration.

And, really, as often as you mention it, you should know that "Wikipedia" has only 1 "k".

ZC

Again, your inane ability to assail a source as uncredible, because it perhaps does not agree with your assumption of facts . . Lessee, go find your own argument and disprove mine . . Krauthammer (who, no matter his credentials) is still far more credible than anything someone who's had to carry bedpans for a living because they flunked out of theology class may imagine.

And for a second, let's dwell on Krauthammer's Pedigree . . A Psychiatrist . . Lessee, they have to have a medical doctor's degree in order to work up to become a Psychiatrist . . Hmmm, that's supposed to farther up the food chain than a bedpan polisher . . And then he quit to work for Jimmy Carter . . And won a Pulitzer prize in 1987, just to mention another of his accomplishments you have yet to garner . . you seem, again, to only be able to find a small part of the facts.

That being said, go back and read the editorials of Broder, West AND Krauthammer that have been published in the Chieftain . . Write them and demand their "demographics and call them a liar . . I don't think either one of you who are doing so have enough intelligence or backbone to back up your arguments . . Which, actually aren't arguments, but childish nit picking . . neither of you have ever put up any convincing theories or facts, other than perhaps spelling, grammar or syntax corrections . . as I have said before . . you add little to the conversation.

And I don't mention your favorite source (Wikkiippedia) often, except when you display your lack of knowledge based upon what is published there . . It's a lousy source of information anyway you spell it . . They don't even know the difference between a Model B Ford and a model C . . and the rest of what is published there has about the same content. It's probably a good place for a dropout like you to start though . .

And Born in Pueblo, (actually, probably found on a rock) if you don't like my attitude, close your small mind, and come look me up, I'm not that hard to find and we'll discuss it . .

Zen Curmudgeon
09-11-2007, 08:41 PM
Again, your inane ability to assail a source as uncredible, because it perhaps does not agree with your assumption of factsI asked for primary sources, you responded with personal attacks on people you don't know personally.

Res ipsa loquitor.

ZC

Pueblocontractor
09-12-2007, 06:53 AM
Does anyone else here think that we need to start thinking about limiting the total human population of the world in some manner? I think that it can be fairly stated that since the world is finite, there exists an upper limit to how many humans can occupy it. In fact, it might even be stated that it would be best to decrease the total population. It has long been observed that the more industrialized nations tend to do that without adopting any policy to enforce such a concept. China, of course, has the one couple, one child policy. Do you have any thoughts on this and perhaps any suggestions on what kind of policies/theories would be fair and equitable and/or supportable by the general population and authoritative bodies, ie, political, social, and religious bodies. No fair bashing Catholics, who generally do not follow the official line on no birth control or bashing certain cultures or races for multiplying like rabbits.





This is why I sign this song


Call me My bad

Bomb bomb bomb

bomb bomb I ran

bomb bomb bomb

bomb bomb I ran



bomb I ran bomb I ran will be rocken and rolling bomb I ran Bomb I ran..

La La La lo lo lo la la la

large
09-12-2007, 10:17 AM
I asked for primary sources, you responded with personal attacks on people you don't know personally.

Res ipsa loquitor.

ZC

I only spoke of you and your buddy . . You wanted background, you got it . . I didn't attack my sources, YOU DID!

You are the one who came up and referred to my post as "BULL$HIT!", demanding proof from anyplace but your source, "Wikkipedia" . . I decided I don't need to prove every damned thing I post . . you doubt it . . DISPROVE IT!

And again, you pi$$ and moan when someone uses other's opinions but have little but quotes of others in either posts or replies . . Besides Wikkipedia, you use George Carlin, and Sam Kinnison as your "Social Commentators . . They're Comedians, not Pulitzer Prize Winners . . Personally, I like Lewis Black as a Social and Political Commentator, but I don't quote him constantly . . or take him seriously! You apparently do . .

And . . why would I want to know you personally? Baiting you on the internet is about all I want to do . .

BornInPueblo
09-12-2007, 10:48 AM
I only spoke of you and your buddy . . You wanted background, you got it . . I didn't attack my sources, YOU DID!

You are the one who came up and referred to my post as "BULL$HIT!", demanding proof from anyplace but your source, "Wikkipedia" . . I decided I don't need to prove every damned thing I post . . you doubt it . . DISPROVE IT!

And again, you pi$$ and moan when someone uses other's opinions but have little but quotes of others in either posts or replies . . Besides Wikkipedia, you use George Carlin, and Sam Kinnison as your "Social Commentators . . They're Comedians, not Pulitzer Prize Winners . . Personally, I like Lewis Black as a Social and Political Commentator, but I don't quote him constantly . . or take him seriously! You apparently do . .

And . . why would I want to know you personally? Baiting you on the internet is about all I want to do . .

Actually, Zen didn't attack your post. He asked for references to back up the stats you quoted, then you attacked and your attack was both irrational and offensive.

large
09-12-2007, 01:46 PM
Lessee, he said it was "Bullsh*t", and then demanded proof . . screw him, he wants proof, let him go find it . . all he knows how to do is wipe bedpans and crusade against religion, 'specially th' Christians . . something he flunked out of, I guess.

And then You go get a census made by the UN . . snort! Same people who said they didn't take any money from Saddam, either . .

This is how it is, I believe little that MY government tells me . . And absolutely nothing that comes out of the UN . .

Krauthammer wrote two columns in the last three weeks or so dealing with the subject and made that comment in one of the editorials. He has also made the statement verbally on the 4 to 5 pm Fox Program. Diana West has said it at least twice in the last three months and David Broder touched on it two weeks ago . . As well as Mona Charen, who has also said this at least twice . . In most cases they were discussing the growing populations of Un-assimulated Islamic immigrants and the growth of their numbers in Western Europe. To the point of a growing exodus of the native British, French, and Dutch. They're consistent with the same statements, so it has a basis . . You want to question it? Write any one of them and call them liars or tell them they're Bullsh*tters . .

This is Zen's method, ask for proof and then belittle the author or the survey . . and then whine when the same numbers are used on him . .

Yer Buddy Zen isn't happy unless he's stirring Sh*t, and apparently you aren't either . . If you don't like "offensive" go someplace else or as I said, look me up, we'll discuss it . . I'll take you around and show you my Art . . I don't hide behind an anonymous name . . And I do live in Pueblo . .

Zen Curmudgeon
09-12-2007, 10:53 PM
Lessee, he said it was "Bullsh*t", and then demanded proof . . screw him, he wants proof, let him go find it . . As much as it pains me to say it, I did break down and do your homework for you. But as a matter of rhetoric, the person who makes a factual claim is the one who must back it up. Otherwise, you're simply spouting opinion and claiming it is fact.

It's not been possible to verify your claims of support by conservative columnists. Your claim that Muslim population growth rates are excessive and represent a threat to the West cannot be verified, either. Frankly we can't even count with confidence American church membership, so it is no surprise that we have no clear idea of what religions are growing at what rates across the planet. Some factors that affect interpretation of what numbers we have did surface:

The folks at Religioustolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org/growth_isl_chr.htm) say this:


Summary:

There is no agreement about future trends in Christianity and Islam (emphasis Zen's):

Author Samuel Huntington predicts that Islam will overtake Christianity early in the 21st century. By the year 2025, Islam will have 5% more adherents than will Christianity.
The U.S. Center for World Mission estimated in 1997 that Christianity's total number of adherents is growing at about 2.3% annually. This is approximately equal to the growth rate of the world's population. Islam is growing faster: about 2.9% and is thus increasing its market share. At this rate, Islam would surpass Christianity as the world's main religion by 2023 CE.
Most Christian sources predict that Christianity will retain its numerical lead over Islam beyond the year 2025. For example, futurist John Gary stated in 1997: "In no probable statistical scenario reaching out to the year 2200, does Islam surpass Christianity in absolute number of adherents."

India has an interesting situation in that Hindu and Muslim populations are competing for space in a terribly overcrowded country. But according to an article read in the National Library of Medicine's PubMed archive (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12347748&dopt=AbstractPlus):


The chimera of a Muslim population growth rate.
Rao M.

PIP: Preliminary results from the 1991 census indicate that overall, the rate of growth of the Muslim population has been 32.8% while that of the Hindu population was 22.8%. However, these data on growth rates by religious communities are not cross-tabulated with their determinants, income and literacy. Organized propaganda harbinging a high rate of Muslim population growth argues that Muslim men tend to have multiple wives and do not practice family planning. As such, Muslims have a higher birth rate than do Hindus and will soon outnumber Hindus in India. Data from official and nonsectarian agencies, however, indicate that polygamy is more common among Hindus than among Muslims and Islam does not prohibit family planning. While the birth rate among Muslims is slightly higher than that of Hindus, the situation is complex and involves socioeconomic determinants of fertility. One study projecting the prevailing growth rates among Hindus and Muslims into the next century indicates that the Muslim population will increase in size far less than will the Hindu population. Muslims will therefore not outnumber Hindus in India.(emphasis Zen's) Spengler, at Asia Times (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GI13Ak01.html), brings up another important aspect of the discussion that deserves consideration.


Demographics and Iran's imperial design
By Spengler

Aging populations will cause severe discomfort in the United States and extreme pain in Japan and Europe by mid-century. But the same trends will devastate the frail economies of the Islamic world, and likely plunge many countries into social chaos.

By 2050, elderly dependents will comprise nearly a third of the population of some Muslim nations, notably Iran - converging on America's dependency ratio at mid-century. But it is one thing to face such a problem with America's per capita gross domestic product (GDP) of $40,000, and quite another to face it with Iran's per capita GDP of $7,000 - especially given that Iran will stop exporting oil before the population crisis hits.

The industrial nations face the prospective failure of their pension systems. But what will happen to countries that have no pension system, where traditional society assumes the care of the aged and infirm? In these cases it is traditional society that will break down, horribly and irretrievably so.I don't expect you to much like these references, particularly considering your history of anti-Muslim bigotry, but the lesson remains - it's not as simple as newspaper pundits (and their fans) would like to believe. There's ample reason to think that as the Muslim population moves into modern times it will change, and today's fundamentalist factions (similar to fundamentalists everywhere, look at Eric Rudolph or Timothy McViegh and Terry Nichols) will diminish in importance. That's not to say that we aren't in for some tough times, but geez, large, we faced down the very dangerous, nuclear-armed Soviet Union, how is it that we are now so threatened by a medieval Muslim society that is about to run out of oil at the same time our corrupting influence will be relentless (hell, even I can't escape Britney Spears)?

This is Zen's method, ask for proof and then belittle the author or the survey . . and then whine when the same numbers are used on him . .Not to belabor the obvious, but I can't very well belittle what you haven't produced. Numbers aren't your forte, large. Do I need to remind you of that "Washington DC has a higher death rate from guns than Baghdad" debacle?

Look, when you opine about things in your expertise, like painting, hazmat, and city planning in the 1970's, I'm all ears, and you'll not find me attacking your statements. I might need further explanation since these are not things I'm familiar with, but I accept your word. Outside of that, however, I will continue to challenge your statements of fact when I don't see their validity.

For a person who prides himself on skepticism, you sure seem to buy a whole bunch of ********. And I will ask about your claims as appropriate. I don't mind your attempts at personal attacks - that's merely evidence that you know you've been caught in exaggeration, obfuscation, or misunderstanding, and refuse to admit it. I would appreciate it if you could refrain from insulting my profession - a cancer patient, of all people, should have a little restraint, but go ahead and make bedpan references if you think that's needed. We understand that patients may say things they don't really mean.

Lastly, please don't embarrass yourself any further by persisting in your straw man attacks against anyone who disagrees with you. Addressing what folks actually write might result in a more productive discussion. Personally, I don't think you can avoid this elementary error, but any effort would be appreciated.

ZC

Pueblocontractor
09-13-2007, 07:54 AM
I only spoke of you and your buddy . . You wanted background, you got it . . I didn't attack my sources, YOU DID!

You are the one who came up and referred to my post as "BULL$HIT!", demanding proof from anyplace but your source, "Wikkipedia" . . I decided I don't need to prove every damned thing I post . . you doubt it . . DISPROVE IT!

And again, you pi$$ and moan when someone uses other's opinions but have little but quotes of others in either posts or replies . . Besides Wikkipedia, you use George Carlin, and Sam Kinnison as your "Social Commentators . . They're Comedians, not Pulitzer Prize Winners . . Personally, I like Lewis Black as a Social and Political Commentator, but I don't quote him constantly . . or take him seriously! You apparently do . .

And . . why would I want to know you personally? Baiting you on the internet is about all I want to do . .


I agree with Large...

large
09-13-2007, 08:16 AM
Why thank you . . for both digging up further information and posting it graciously . . no excuses, but the time I spend on the net is writing this bullsh*t, not digging around all day, looking for minutiae . . I do have commissions to complete . . However, as you, yourself have written, there is actually "Insufficient data" to either prove or disprove anything I might have quoted . .

I go through 3 newspapers each morning, and a couple of books a week on average. If it's interesting or Controversial, I'll make it a point to read more about it. Often, I must research a project or commission, thus, while not becoming an expert on the subject perhaps, pretty damned close to one . .

Thus, my knowledge is based upon what I have read (as is the case with most people), and often quote it, just as you do . . Most often I take a writer at his word and those I quote generally have their ducks in a row when they write it . . However, you generally belittle any writer that's quoted by anyone you either disagree with or want to shoot down verbally, leaving the impression that you must know appreciably more than they . . which is not the case either . . As you respect my knowledge in certain areas, I must reciprocate by saying that no one, on either site we post on, knows basic theology any better than you, and of course, your medical knowledge, while not inarguable in some areas is pretty damned good . . Politics? You're as opinionated as I, probably no better, certainly, no worse . .

I might also comment on the Anti-Muslim Bigotry remark . . I don't dislike Muslims in general, any more than you dislike Christians in general. However . . and I'll say it again, it's not Baptist Radicals who have spread terror throughout the "Gap" areas of the world, spread the same into Western Europe, Southern Russia, Northern and Central Africa and made several attempts to kill Americans on American Soil. Successfully in several of those attacks I might add . .

And were it Radical Baptists, the moderate Baptists would get up and resist the radicals . . I'm sure . .

Not so, to any degree, in the "Moderate Islamic World". When Baptists, or Mormons or Hindus start evangelizing with AK 47s, RPGs, Roadside Bombs, hijacking Aircraft and attacking innocent men, women and children, then I'll probably become an Anti Baptist, or Mormon or Hindu Bigot . .

It's called, my friend, knowing thine enemy . . or at least recognizing who you must be aware of . . By the standards you apparently set, between 1940 and 1945, everybody was an Anti Japanese, Anti German bigot . . and in hindsight by todays PC standards, America, in general, was . . And while I've never read much demography about Japan's average citizens and what they believed about the Emperor's War with the US, There's been considerable opinion written about the "Average Citizens" of Germany . . Most said . . "They didn't really know" what the "Axis" was really doing . . whether it involved the invasion of Poland, France, etc or gassing a couple of million Jews and what not . . They were just going about their business . . Building war machines and sending young men off to fight the "Invaders" . .

This is pretty much how I look at the Muslim World . . They(CAIR, and other Moslem information organizations, as well as many Muslim Countries Leaders) would have the Western world believe that al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Mahdi Militias, the Taliban and all the other radical Fundamental Muslim dominated terror groups don't exist, and that none of the funding that they subsist on comes from the rest of the Muslim world . . As is conventional wisdom in COIN, a terrorist (or guerilla fighter) cannot exist without the support of those around him . . and it isn't the little old ladies in the Methodist Garden Clubs Of America who donate money to the Islamic terrorists around the world, no matter their names . .

That's my problem with Muslims . . perhaps put another way . . I believe that there's 1.4 (or whatever the number is this week) billion Muslims out there that want those who aren't part of that 1.4 Billion dead . . Because the 98.8% of those 1.4 billion haven't said a damned thing about the 1% who continue to insist upon that Idea . .

I have a friend who is a "Blooded Kuwaiti", met him over twenty years ago when he was attending college here in Pueblo. And as he's married to a "Pueblo Girl" he visits annually, and when he does, we visit . . As he's a very liberal member of the Family, he worries that the "Radical Conservatives' or fundamentalists will eventually topple Saudi Arabia and when that happens Kuwait will quickly follow, as will most of the other Gulf States . . and it's all about Money and Islamic power . . The Imams want more, of both, and as the "cut" gets smaller in the Oil States, the bottom tier will do the Imam's bidding, just as the Shiite do currently in Najaf and other central parts of Iraq . . So it's a "Muslim" thing.

I don't hate Muslims, matter of fact, counting Ali, I probably only know a half dozen . . Get along with them fine, as far as being social goes . . and while I have, in one way or another expressed my views, none seem to think I'm some sort of bigot . . Personally, I don't hate people, individually, because they're Black, or brown, Muslim or Mormon, whatever, but I certainly have a problem with dicks, and I'll damned sure tell one so when the need arises . . . I prefer it to be in person though, it provides the "dick" a true feeling of my sincerity . .

large
09-13-2007, 08:20 AM
And by the by . . About half of what we all discuss and "debate" (?) is no more than "bullsh*ting" . . and I'd guess "baiting' is part of it . . perhaps if we'd do a little less of that, it would seem more civil to onlookers . .

or perhaps not, dunno . .

BornInPueblo
09-14-2007, 10:21 PM
Hey Large,

“Lessee, he said it was "Bullsh*t", and then demanded proof . . screw him, he wants proof, let him go find it.”

Actually, ZenCurmudgeon said “On the face of it, I think your post is ******** - but I do appreciate the chance to see the sources you cite. Who knows? I might agree with you.”

If I understand your reply correctly, he has to accept your figures or go out and prove they are incorrect, while all you have to do is make a statement and not substantiate it.

“all he knows how to do is wipe bedpans and crusade against religion, 'specially th' Christians . . something he flunked out of, I guess.”

Then you follow up with how really childish and stupid you are.

“And then You go get a census made by the UN . . snort! Same people who said they didn't take any money from Saddam, either . . “

Well, it is not a census actually, but an analysis of birth, death, and immigration flows by all the countries in the world and I only stated in my post the countries with Muslim majority populations. The UN agency that is responsible for those statistics is completely separate from the UN agency that dealt with the program of overseeing the program you are criticizing.

The fact remains that all you did was make statements that you cannot or are unwilling to substantiate with a reliable source. The fact remains that I disproved your statements from a reliable source.

Snort that.

“This is how it is, I believe little that MY government tells me . . And absolutely nothing that comes out of the UN . .”

Of course, it is your right to do so. At the same time it is only a convenient and lazy strategy to win an argument when you don’t have to back up what you say and you can criticize and dismiss the statistics from authoritative sources that don’t agree with your opinion.

Note that at no time have you found any reliable source whatsoever to back up your statements on this subject, not even those you refer to as having actually made them. We are left to take your word for what it was they said exactly without knowing what they actually said.

“Krauthammer wrote two columns in the last three weeks or so dealing with the subject and made that comment in one of the editorials. He has also made the statement verbally on the 4 to 5 pm Fox Program. Diana West has said it at least twice in the last three months and David Broder touched on it two weeks ago . . As well as Mona Charen, who has also said this at least twice . . In most cases they were discussing the growing populations of Un-assimulated Islamic immigrants and the growth of their numbers in Western Europe. To the point of a growing exodus of the native British, French, and Dutch. They're consistent with the same statements, so it has a basis . . You want to question it? Write any one of them and call them liars or tell them they're Bullsh*tters . .”

What comment are you referring to? Your original comment was “Most notably, the Muslim Population seems to be breeding like flies . . according to several demography studies. the populations in Muslim dominated countries is increasing twofold every ten years . .” That was your original statement that was questioned. Maybe you would care to state one or two of those demography studies so that we can actually see what they say, but since you have not been forthcoming with anything other than the paragraph above, I doubt you can. Instead you now refer to recent columns and statements by people on a totally different subject referring to immigrants in Western Europe. Which is it that you are attempting to make an argument about: Muslim dominated countries increasing twofold every ten years or Islamic immigrants and the growth of their numbers in Western Europe? We can discuss each of them or both of them, but the original statement you made had nothing to do with confusing it with the new one you’ve now introduced.

“This is Zen's method, ask for proof and then belittle the author or the survey . . and then whine when the same numbers are used on him . .”

No, that is your method. Zen rightfully asked for information to support a statement you made. You have never provided that information. All you have done is evade providing that information, belittle my source that proved you wrong, obfuscate it by changing the subject from Muslim majority countries to Islamic immigrants into Western Europe, and using obnoxious ranting, raving, and roving statements to belittle us.

“Yer Buddy Zen isn't happy unless he's stirring Sh*t, and apparently you aren't either . . If you don't like "offensive" go someplace else or as I said, look me up, we'll discuss it . . I'll take you around and show you my Art . . I don't hide behind an anonymous name . . And I do live in Pueblo . .”

I don’t like “offensive” and I’m not about to take any advice from some airhead like you. The “stirring” is coming from your side, not from Zen or me. I stand by the statements I have previously made about you and evidenced in your posts: you are narcissistic, abusive, and illogical.

BornInPueblo
09-14-2007, 11:37 PM
Hey Large,

“Again, your inane ability to assail a source as uncredible, because it perhaps does not agree with your assumption of facts . . Lessee, go find your own argument and disprove mine . . Krauthammer (who, no matter his credentials) is still far more credible than anything someone who's had to carry bedpans for a living because they flunked out of theology class may imagine.”

Where did you get the term “uncredible?” Certainly not from anything Zen said. What Zen said was that you provided no information to back up what you previously stated and that is, in fact, true. You know that Zen never said anything about “assumption of facts” and only asked for the facts to be shown before he could accept them. If you are not willing to defend your “facts,” then don’t expect any of us to go out and find them for you. No amount of your useless and degrading arguments to the contrary are meaningful.

“And for a second, let's dwell on Krauthammer's Pedigree . . A Psychiatrist . . Lessee, they have to have a medical doctor's degree in order to work up to become a Psychiatrist . . Hmmm, that's supposed to farther up the food chain than a bedpan polisher . . And then he quit to work for Jimmy Carter . . And won a Pulitzer prize in 1987, just to mention another of his accomplishments you have yet to garner . . you seem, again, to only be able to find a small part of the facts.”

It’s one thing to worship someone who has a medical degree, worked for Jimmy Carter, and earned a Pulitzer Prize and another thing to attribute statements to them that you cannot and will not backup with an actual reference to what they actually said. Not only are you unable to support the statistics you originally quoted, but you can’t even back up the actual statement they made with a clear reference to it.

“That being said, go back and read the editorials of Broder, West AND Krauthammer that have been published in the Chieftain . . Write them and demand their "demographics and call them a liar . . I don't think either one of you who are doing so have enough intelligence or backbone to back up your arguments . . Which, actually aren't arguments, but childish nit picking . . neither of you have ever put up any convincing theories or facts, other than perhaps spelling, grammar or syntax corrections . . as I have said before . . you add little to the conversation.”

Do you think that’s our job or inclination to do? I’m not going on a wild goose chase to prove you are wrong or right. I’ve already proven you wrong by citing reliable statistics from a reliable source. If you want to prove your side of the story, it is your responsibility to do so, not mine. Other than belittle the United Nations, you have presented no facts, no information, and nothing of value other than some vague references to people who have made some kind of commentary on some program. Not once have you provided the actual statements made or anything to document it. The fact is: it is you who have added nothing to the conversation.

BornInPueblo
09-15-2007, 12:36 AM
As far as the "Guilt" of using more resources than those people in the gap countries do . . "Globalization" may eventually level the playing field, but probably not. Simply because Human nature causes some people to strive to be better, smarter, richer than others . . and to do that, they need to use other people to achieve this . . and the poorer the better . .

Especially in the area of "Basic Industries" which will become more dangerous and costly to obtain to support the advancing technology of the world . .

E.G:5500 years ago, copper laid around on the surface of the earth, in almost pure nodules. Today? Have you ever been to West Jordan, Utah?

The smart and the rich will not go underground and risk their lives for this . . they will send someone who values life less and needs money more . .

Wow, that is the number one problem that we face, isn't it. I find it fascinating that you think the people who need money more are those who value life less. Is there a study to support that theory? I can well believe that such people are forced to take on such a risky occupation have little other choice to support themselves and their families, but where is the evidence that they value life less? Are they faced with greater risks in their lives. Yes, that is inherently provable. Do they value their relatives and friends engaged in such occupations less because of the risks they take to support them? No, that is not supportable.

All you are doing, as usual, is to make yourself the ultimate authority on something you have no understanding in, and believe you are somehow superior. Painting stencils onto vehicles is not an artistic talent, no matter how well you do it. Nor does telling your employees about the the dangers of various chemicals as required by OSHA regulations make you an expert on dangerous chemicals to the general public. Teaching Voc-Ed courses might make you a teacher, but it does not make you any kind of an authority on other subjects. Living in several different areas also does not make you an authority about those areas, nor does engaging in an occupation to reduce hazardous materials make you an authority on the hazardous materials you were dealing with make you an authority on them. Whatever credentials you have from whatever sources you have referred to so far have nothing to do with making you somehow a superior being that can evaluate, digest, and promulgate your wisdom as if you are somehow the ultimate authority on any subject about them. They are simply matters that must be addressed by your chosen or assumed roles as an employee involved in such practices by the occupation you were invovled with at the time. Whoopee, a bunch of auto enthusiasts thought your paintings on various vehicles were really good. That doesn't make you an artist.

Zen Curmudgeon
09-15-2007, 02:34 AM
And by the by . . About half of what we all discuss and "debate" (?) is no more than "bullsh*ting" . . and I'd guess "baiting' is part of it . . perhaps if we'd do a little less of that, it would seem more civil to onlookers . .

or perhaps not, dunno . .This is the last place I post after a longish "paid" day. I do respect you in many ways, maybe that's not obvious. Visual expression is not perfectly equivalent to verbal - and when many writers are less than gifted (such as myself) confusion can result.

Does The Pantry have good biscuits & gravy?

ZC

large
09-16-2007, 03:38 PM
Yeah, not bad, . . But the Green is some of the best "Pueblo" style around . . I have several friends who come up from Albuquerque to pig out on it . . and if I travel in that direction and don't take a couple of gallons south with me, I'm chastised severely . .

Had to take one of our toys to the Woodland Park/Cripple Creek Car Show this weekend . . shakedown run . . kind of a fun show, lotsa exposure . . and all that . .

McGowdog
09-17-2007, 02:56 PM
Nice to see how green chile (or is it chili?) makes everybody happy!

large
09-17-2007, 03:43 PM
I think if it's green, it's Chile and if it's red, it's Chili . . but don't bet the farm on either . .

Or maybe it's Chile in the field, and Chili after it's cooked . .

Hell, I dunno . .

BornInPueblo
09-17-2007, 05:51 PM
Does The Pantry have good biscuits & gravy?
ZC

The Pantry is a good choice for almost everything to do with breakfast. However, if you are ever headed in a westward direction, try the Waffle Wagon in Canon City for breakfast. They are closed on Sunday and Monday, but when they are open, you wouldn't want to go anywhere else. And they are right on the left side of Highway 50 as you head west, also known as Royal Gorge Blvd. in Canon City, so you don't have get lost to find them.

Zen Curmudgeon
09-17-2007, 08:12 PM
The Pantry is a good choice for almost everything to do with breakfast. However, if you are ever headed in a westward direction, try the Waffle Wagon in Canon City for breakfast. Been there, ate that. You're right - it's pretty good. So's the 1st Street Cafe in Salida.

About once a month we trek to Western Omelette in Colo Springs on a Sunday to watch the tourista he-men attempt the "hot green" on their eggs. It's green chile a la Pueblo but with habaneros instead of mirasols. With their women looking on, pasty white boys from Indiana give it their all, but in the end (pun intended) the peppers win out.

ZC

large
09-18-2007, 06:32 AM
No Ice Cream dessert, huh?

When will they learn?

Pueblocontractor
09-18-2007, 06:40 AM
I am in need of some Pueblo Green Chile. HELP HELP ME S.O.S

large
09-18-2007, 07:22 AM
Hey . . !

Just think about it, Gran Prix, Sadie's, The Mill Stop, The Pantry, the "New" Martinez and a plethora of others here, who serve up the wonderful and tasty Green that seems to be found nowhere else in the lower 48 . .

And you moved to San Diego . . heh, heh . .

BornInPueblo
09-18-2007, 08:32 AM
It wasn't necessarily for breakfast and I don't know if they had green chile on the menu, but does anyone remember the Greenwood Cafe from back in the 50's and 60's east of Blende? They had the best fried chicken, mashed potatoes and gravy, and Texas toast. My favorite was the breaded veal. Yum, now that's one of those childhood memories I can literally taste when I think about it.

large
09-18-2007, 09:01 AM
Fried Chicken was their Forte . . Highway 50 and Baxter Road, closed in 1968, I think.

Bill Jr. didn't want to be a restauranteur, and retired from Ma Bell 10 or 12 years ago. Builds peak cars and wires Street Rods for RJ Valdez. Midget is the General Manager of the Clear Channel Radio outlets here and in the Springs

Several others have tried to make a go of it and haven't been able to do so . . Kinda like the mom n pops V. the loaf n jugs, the little family "Dinner Diners" have to compete with the Applebees, and TGIFs, etc . .

Daytime diners and specialty restaurants seem to do better, especially anyplace serving breakfasts of any note . . and for some odd reason, IHOP and Village Inn doesn't seem to make much difference to places like the Pantry and the Mill Stop . . guess it's the Chile (Chili ?)

BornInPueblo
09-18-2007, 06:40 PM
Yep, that's it, Highway 50 and Baxter Road, NW corner of the intersection. Those were the days. They also made pies fresh every day, and I can still remember the lemon and coconut cream, pecan, pumpkin, and rhubarb slices I enjoyed. The pecan was so rich you almost died from eating it right on the spot, especially with a scoop of vanilla ice cream on top.

I'm sure they must have used lard in their dough and for frying, but back then we didn't have to feel guilty about eating such fats. My mother's french fries have always been the best I've ever eaten, and she did use lard to cook them in. You only have one life to live anyway, so why not live it enjoying what you really like rather than worrying about how long your life will be?

fcaseydrc
09-21-2007, 02:25 PM
No, I do not think anything needs to be done about controling population. Mother nature by way of storms, floods and whatever, plus wars, diseases and other tragedies take care of the balance in nature and population of any species on this earth, and people themselves in many ways cause deaths that reduce the population. People don't need to impose laws that are needless and unworthy of consideration.

BornInPueblo
09-21-2007, 06:03 PM
No, I do not think anything needs to be done about controling population. Mother nature by way of storms, floods and whatever, plus wars, diseases and other tragedies take care of the balance in nature and population of any species on this earth, and people themselves in many ways cause deaths that reduce the population. People don't need to impose laws that are needless and unworthy of consideration.

Yes, you are quite correct in making these statements. However, man has done a great deal to artificially increase his chances of survival over that of mother nature and diseases, and even in war. The human population is increasing world wide, not remaining steady, at the expense of other animal species and at the expense of the environment. So the question is more about the quality of life for humans, other forms of life on the planet, and the environment we live in rather than the fact that we will eventually reach our upper limit and starve ourselves down to a sustainable level or even cause such environmental damages that we cannot ourselves survive. Before we reach the upper limit, it might be worth discussing ways to control the human population, address what we would like to be our quality of life, and how we would want the environment and diversity of other species around us to be like in the future. There is little chance that the discussion and entertainment of addressing those kind of issues in this forum is going to result in any needless laws. There is also little chance that anyone in this forum, including myself, have any idea about how to approach the subject. I just thought a general discussion on the topic might result in some interesting exchanges on it.

Zen Curmudgeon
09-21-2007, 10:43 PM
Let's apply the same standard of skepticism here I use for politics, religion, and. . . well, just politics and religion.

Yes, you are quite correct in making these statements. However, man has done a great deal to artificially increase his chances of survival over that of mother nature and diseases, and even in war.

And this is shown where? While I'm pretty sure simple sepsis has killed off more life than anything else in the past 25,000 years, I am unaware of any studies that show interpersonal violence to be an equivalent scourge.


The human population is increasing world wide, not remaining steady, at the expense of other animal species and at the expense of the environment.Primary sources, please. This is not a faith-based discussion.


So the question is more about the quality of life for humans, other forms of life on the planet, and the environment we live in rather than the fact that we will eventually reach our upper limit and starve ourselves down to a sustainable level or even cause such environmental damages that we cannot ourselves survive. Nope, sorry, you're indulging in circular reasoning, and I will not let that pass without challenge. To start, 1) define "quality of life", 2) specify "our upper limit" in numeric terms (I'll take either absolute numbers or a percentage of current population), 3) define "sustainable" and do it in early 21st century terms. Does this mean I lose Internet access? Electricity? Antibiotics? Recombinent DNA? Insulin? Mosquito nets? AK47s?"


Before we reach the upper limit, it might be worth discussing ways to control the human population, address what we would like to be our quality of life, and how we would want the environment and diversity of other species around us to be like in the future. Support your claim, then we'll chat. As of now, you are more religious than scientific in your claims. back up, back them up. Or go get a 501(3)(c) tax exemption, like Dr. Dobson.

BornInPueblo
09-22-2007, 01:46 PM
I don’t know what you want me to substantiate here, but if you would be more specific, I’ll do so. As far as interpersonal violence, I haven’t made any claim that is equivalent to other scourges or even an important one. However, there is no doubt that interpersonal violence has reduced the population as witness the Holocaust, WWI, WWII (need I name all the wars, revolutions, and genocides during the twentieth century and the first years of the twenty-first?) Still, overall the world population is increasing. Are you asking for proof of that? Do you doubt that more people live longer lives because of vaccines, new surgical procedures, new medicines, better hygiene, etc.; infant mortality rates have generally decreased because of better medical care and nutrition, although it is still very high in many of the poorest areas of the world? Is that what you want me to prove? Or do you want me to prove that other animal species are being threatened by increased human population through the increased destruction of and encroachments into their natural environments, over hunting and fishing, damming of rivers, etc., that we do to provide for the ever increasing demands for living spaces, energy, food, water, and products used by mankind? None of the statements I’ve made seem to need proof as far as I can tell, they seem to me to be common knowledge to most people. If you do not accept a specific statement and want me to back it up, I’m sure I can oblige you, just name it.

It seems kind of ridiculous for you to want generally known and accepted facts to be proven over and over again, but here’s one for world population growth:

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/worldpopinfo.html

I can google up a bunch more of this useless exercise if you want me too, but are you honestly asking about something you doubt or is it just your way of being contrary?

Circular reasoning? That might be true if I were making a conclusion that needed to be based on studies, facts, and figures. I’m asking for dialogue on what we want to be our quality of life, so I’m purposely not starting out by defining it and letting the conversation and other people’s ideas better define it by consensus, if that is possible. I have no idea what the upper limit is numerically. Is that important? Do you seriously doubt that there is some upper limit beyond which we can no longer find enough fresh water and food for everyone? If you think that an infinity of population is possible, than we don’t need to discuss this at all, do we?

Sustainable:
1: capable of being sustained
2 a: of, relating to, or being a method of harvesting or using a resource so that the resource is not depleted or permanently damaged.
From Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary

If you want to define it some other way, do it yourself.

As far as I’m concerned, no one here really seems to want to actually discuss this, so I’m not expecting anything of value in this forum. All you are doing is being cantankerous and argumentative, purely for that purpose.

large
09-23-2007, 08:35 AM
And the pot calls the kettle . . .

BornInPueblo
09-23-2007, 05:00 PM
And the pot calls the kettle . . .

I call them as they are. Whatsa' matter, are you still hurting over not being able to substantiate the last statement we challenged about Muslim countries populations doubling every ten years? You made a specific statement and we made a specific challenge to it. Either prove it or shut the f*** up.

Zen Curmudgeon
09-23-2007, 09:13 PM
However, there is no doubt that interpersonal violence has reduced the population as witness the Holocaust, WWI, WWII (need I name all the wars, revolutions, and genocides during the twentieth century and the first years of the twenty-first?)Let's try this: WWI and the Spanish Flu competed for the greatest killer award. The Flu won, despite the best efforts of all Western industrial nations to the contrary.


Still, overall the world population is increasing. Are you asking for proof of that? Of course not - I question your premise that this is a Bad Thing. Is it the number of humans that you're concerned about? The effects of technology? Which? The planet is a long ways from full.


(Do you doubt that more people live longer lives because of vaccines, new surgical procedures, new medicines, better hygiene, etc.; infant mortality rates have generally decreased because of better medical care and nutrition, although it is still very high in many of the poorest areas of the world? Of course not, but is this wonderful technology available to the majority of humans? Are you aware of the fact that the USA is not even in the top 10 countries for low infant mortality rates? Malaria still kills kids in Africa - despite anti-mosquito techniques having been around for most of a century. Inquiring minds want you to support your assumptions.


Is that what you want me to prove? That you've done more than read an issue of Mother Jones.

Look, so far as I can tell there's no reason to think population of our species is a problem. We have some awfully primitive technology that might wipe us out, but the planet will go on (it sure didn't miss the dinosaurs). Your obligation is to specify the hows of the whats you raise the alarm over. So far, your contributions to this thread have resembled retreads of popular media articles. I want you to get specific - a task you may not be up to, as witness:


None of the statements I’ve made seem to need proof as far as I can tell, they seem to me to be common knowledge to most people. If you do not accept a specific statement and want me to back it up, I’m sure I can oblige you, just name it.See, there you go. The day you believe your statements are self-evident is the day you should start a church. I am not a faith-based person - and your contributions to this thread indicate that you are. Get the facts together, maybe then we can talk. But as long as you think what you believe is a self-evident fact, this thread will go nowhere.

ZC

User No Longer With Us
09-24-2007, 12:50 PM
wow! look at the testosterone being flung about! I'd better get out of here before I grow a mustache...or something...lol

large
09-24-2007, 01:44 PM
Lessee, Ole Joe Stalin killed somewhere between 30 and 70 million Russians during the Purges.

Of course, that's depending upon who you talk to or read about . .

Knocked a hell of a dent in the Russian population, not to mention the Russians lost close to 20 Million fighting WWII . . . shows to go ya, Communism is good population control . . Maybe we all ought to become communists . . ?

And while on the subject of Communists and Retroactive Birth Control, how many Chinese were killed during and after Tienimin Square? Again, no one knows for sure, but there are estimates as high as 10 million. Or Mao's purges during the mid '60's . . ?

or Laos and Cambodia, late 70's ?

In all probability, the purges mentioned, probably killed more than all the wars in the 20th century . . and if you want to sit around and prove or disprove me . . knock yerself out . .

And you say of yourself;
None of the statements I’ve made seem to need proof as far as I can tell, they seem to me to be common knowledge to most people.That's pretty good when you demand proof of any utterance by others in a very self righteous way . . . as Zen sez; "Starting a church?"

Not to mention your warning to others that there's nobody serious up here . . we'll certainly include YOU!

Heh, heh . . .

BornInPueblo
09-24-2007, 04:53 PM
To large and zen,

The illogical and idiotic statements made by both of you are why this forum has no meaningful participation. I came here wanting to discuss and encourage others to join in, but I can clearly understand why they don't. This is nothing more than the large and zen will engage in any distorted means of demeaning anyone from having a reasonable dialogue.

Let's just call it what it is: the large and zen forum.

Mr. Webmaster: your gods, large and zen, demand that you perform a great service to them and allow them to dominate your forum. I hope you will willingly serve them and offer them your services forever and forever, amen.

Gentlemen, have to it. Enjoy it while you can.

User No Longer With Us
09-24-2007, 08:04 PM
Oh, come on, BornInPueblo, what's a good discussion without an opposing point of view? If everyone agreed on everything all the time, think of how boring life would be -- and no one would learn anything from each other, much less have something to laugh at.

Cheer up! lol

large
09-25-2007, 06:52 AM
It's the "my Dog, Rover" thing . . Born in can dish it out but he can't take it . .

He's either a preacher or planning to become one, because while he doesn't need facts , only the faith that he's right and everybody else is wrong . . He demands them of others . . and gets miffed when asked !

And He "doesn't like me" . . that's gonna cost me a lot of sleep . .

BornInPueblo
09-25-2007, 07:35 PM
Does anyone else here think that we need to start thinking about limiting the total human population of the world in some manner? I think that it can be fairly stated that since the world is finite, there exists an upper limit to how many humans can occupy it. In fact, it might even be stated that it would be best to decrease the total population. It has long been observed that the more industrialized nations tend to do that without adopting any policy to enforce such a concept. China, of course, has the one couple, one child policy. Do you have any thoughts on this and perhaps any suggestions on what kind of policies/theories would be fair and equitable and/or supportable by the general population and authoritative bodies, ie, political, social, and religious bodies. No fair bashing Catholics, who generally do not follow the official line on no birth control or bashing certain cultures or races for multiplying like rabbits.

User No Longer With Us
09-25-2007, 07:51 PM
Nichst mir! Well, one exception - I think China has too many people, and considering they're the filthiest most careless country on the planet, they SHOULD limit their population. I'm tired of their diseases spreading all over the world making people sick -- the flu originates there as does SARS and so did the Spanish Flu that mutated while in Spain killing off almost 1/3 of the world's population. And I'm not too happy with them poisoning wheat with melamine then selling it to the rest of the world. Most of it ended up in pet food, some of it ended up in food consumed by humans by way of the meat from animals that consumed the product. And let's not forget the anti-freeze in the toothpaste trick, another Chinese product, and the toys painted with lead based paint, too. Chinese people don't care who they step on or hurt, I've had plenty of personal experience with that one, and when I ran my cleaning company, they were the filthiest people I ever had to clean up after. Other than that, let the populations take care of themselves.

User No Longer With Us
09-25-2007, 07:52 PM
Psst - BornInPueblo - was that last post of mine enough to put me on your idiot list? :D

BornInPueblo
09-26-2007, 07:17 PM
Psst - BornInPueblo - was that last post of mine enough to put me on your idiot list? :D

Definitely not. I’m no longer going to pay any attention to large and zen by reading their ridiculous posts or responding to them. Their unreasonable comments and illogical statements are not worth the trouble. Of course, their only objective is to dominate the forum, so ignoring them is the only way to eliminate them from the discussion at hand.

Thank you for your post, although I'm not sure that a few personal experiences with some Chinese people can be extended to all Chinese as regards to hygiene and cleanliness; certainly, if we were to look at the world's poorest people anywhere on earth, they would lack anything we accept as basic to simple hygiene and cleanliness and the majority of the Chinese population certainly fall into that category, yet I find it somehow amazing that journalistic photographers almost daily document some of those poor wearing rather clean looking and colorful attractive clothing and showing these same people washing their prize possessions in the rivers and sweeping clean their homes with primitive brooms and dirt floors. I do appreciate that you are talking about your experiences with American Chinese people rather than the poorer rural Chinese living in China. Similarly, I've heard anecdotal stories over the years of Arab college students living in college dorms and apartments in filthy conditions and slaughtering and roasting animals in them that caused their neighbors much distress.

I am also concerned about some of the products that we import from China. Now, it seems that at least Mattel is saying that they overreacted in their recalls of Chinese toy imports, but I'm not sure how honest they are being about that statement and what the motivation was. The fact that the Chinese government is basically not open to criticism and not subject to popular opinion, at least from within its borders, is also a concern.

The Chinese government is the only government as far as I know that has taken a stand at controlling population within its borders with its one couple, one child law. Since China is the country with the most people of any nation on the earth today, we might not be surprised that they are the only government willing to do something about it. As you and I could rightfully surmise, the Chinese government does not represent the will of its own people, so even if the law might achieve some beneficial long term goal, it is not inherently right for such an aristocratic government to declare such terms over all of its citizens who have little or no voice in those decisions.

User No Longer With Us
09-27-2007, 12:10 PM
Well, my assertion concerning Chinese cleanliness, or lack of it is a little more than personal experience.

When I ran my cleaning company, there wasn't ONE job I had cleaning up after chinese people that was easy, and in comparing notes with other cleaning people, they all said the same thing, and some of these are in other states.

The other part of that comes from a bit of studying I did years ago concerning the history of cleanliness in the US. In the US, typhoid was a really big issue as recently as the 1930's and 1940's, and when we learned how to properly dispose of our waste and clean up after ourselves, we pretty much got rid of it. I understand it can still flare up in places where cleanliness is not practiced, especially in areas where there are severely poverty stricken people trying to live off their land -- also referred to as backwoods hillbillies. I have some of those in my family who live in Kentucky, but that's another story for another time.

Chinese people have a completely different culture than ours, they eat things we are not generally accustomed to eating. Some things they eat, like rats, can make a person who isn't acclimated to such things sick.

In looking at the trends of viral and bacterial illnesses -- especially airborne, it appears that the most serious of all illnesses seem to have started in China, and this even includes the Black Plague, also called Bubonic Plague and Black Death. The swine flu and other influenzas also originated in China, as did the corona virus which is responsible for the common cold and it's mutated version, SARS.

Bird flu and the Spanish flu also originated in China. The notorious Spanish flu actually started in China and mutated with another virus in Spain to create the germ that killed almost 1/3 of the worlds population starting in about 1918. Now they say that the avian flu may mutate with bird flu to create another pandemic. Both of those, of course, originating in china.

It seems that these diseases start in China and spread to all parts of Europe before making their way to the Americas.

When the SARS "thing" happened in 2003, China actually attempted to cover the matter up, but the victim died in the US, and we're pretty good about discovering infectious disease problems here. The Chinese Government didn't get away with that for very long, especially when it was found out that there was a bit of an epidemic there and they attempted to hide it from the rest of the world, in essence, endangering us all.

Between that and their carelessness for safety and health in general, with the recalls and the bit about the poisoned grain and all -- the attitude displayed by the Chinese government was exactly the same attitude that I saw in the Chinese people I know. It was the attitude of "we don't care who we step on, we want what we want, despite who we are going to use and abuse in the process of getting it". I think it's kind of selfish of them to be so rude to people in such a manner, and I think the US should limit it's trade with China until some of those people there can learn to stop that behavior. They wouldn't want the rest of the world to treat them with the same carelessness, but they sure don't mind dishing it out.

User No Longer With Us
09-27-2007, 12:15 PM
Oh and while the Chinese government may not represent the will of it's people, which I think is a different issue all together, they do have the same general attitude, as the ones I know. The Chinese government is responsible for what it's country does, and if the people there really feel that their government is not a fair representation of them, then at least the ones who migrate here would do well to present a different attitude. As long as people like me see the people displaying the same attitude as their government, then I will not be convinced that their government isn't an accurate representation of it's people over all.

I really can't get into it all here, and Chinese aren't the only ones who do this, but when people come here from other countries and refuse to assimilate yet they want their citizenship, it divides this nation. Too many people come here expecting to eventually turn it into a mini version of the country they came from, and they become easily insulted when we expect them to assimilate and use our language and abide by our customs, just as they would expect anyone who migrates to their country to do.

So I'll stop here before I end up typing all day. lol

large
09-27-2007, 05:08 PM
THE PROBLEM HERE? The tolerance and "celebration" of DIVERSITY instead of assimilation. Diversity allows "Tribalism", while assimilation creates "Nationalism" . .

again . . .

User No Longer With Us
09-27-2007, 06:36 PM
yeppers...

BornInPueblo
09-30-2007, 12:11 AM
Well, my assertion concerning Chinese cleanliness, or lack of it is a little more than personal experience.

When I ran my cleaning company, there wasn't ONE job I had cleaning up after chinese people that was easy, and in comparing notes with other cleaning people, they all said the same thing, and some of these are in other states.

Well, Lexi, just like large believes he is an expert on some subject or another based on personal experiences and anecdotal information, I guess that you feel you can likely do the same. Gosh, your basis of information was not based on “ONE job,” it was also based on how many other jobs and confirmation by another anonymous group of people only you can identify, but remain unidentified to us. I guess we are left to either believe whatever you say is true without any way to verify it, or dismiss it as false without ever knowing how many times you actually cleaned residences formerly occupied by a Chinese family or that your references to other cleaners comments are true or not. Even if such circumstances were to cover 10 or 20 Chinese families you might have cleaned up after, should we all have to conclude that as representative of thousands of other Chinese families?

Let me make this perfectly clear to you. I seriously doubt that you have not had to clean up any residence that was clearly more difficult than another one based on the ethnic or national origin of the principal resident before you did so.

As to the origin of some of the diseases you have clearly identified, I can also see that the Chinese government is faulty and irresponsible in their reactions. That they originated in what is essentially 20% of the worlds total population should not be surprising or unexpected. It is also not surprising that the population is one of the most densely compacted peoples in the world given that most of the vast area occupied by China is largely unsupportive of human habitation on a large scale and that most of the population is concentrated in relatively smaller areas of the county. Given those means of survival it is not so surprising that diseases are spread or that food sources are expanded.

Gene
09-30-2007, 03:32 AM
I had a female landlord who was (or rather still is) Taiwanese. (Free China as some refer to it.) Now, at the time I lived with her, I wasn't the cleanest of all people, however, I kept my filthy habits in my room. (in a house) also working graveyard, that was nice.

But she didn't have many dishes. She had like 2 plates, a coupel bowls, etc... and rarely used them. She said it's because he hates to get dishpan hands. I will say that for the most part, she cleaned up after herself to a bearable level. But she's also very cheap, and I think on occasion ovcercharging for services. But, hopefully, if I taught her anything, it's easier to keep a customer, than it is to obtain a new one.

Go Fish.

User No Longer With Us
09-30-2007, 10:04 AM
BornInPueblo, I challenge you to open your own cleaning company, and you personally go out there and do the cleaning. Clean up after people of all ethicities and then come back and tell me which ones were the worst.

EVERY Chinese person's home that I cleaned up after had this sticky goo that was like flypaper or worse all over their kitchens, living rooms, and most of the house. It's also stuck in the carpets. I've cleaned it off of counter tops, cupboards -- inside and out, top and bottom -- walls, floors, in and on kitchen drawers, and so on. And try cleaning it out of the range hood, that's hard to do if you're not limber.

It comes from the way they cook, and it permeates the entire abode. It's worse than flypaper, and in some cases, I've had to scrape as much off as I could before trying to clean it chemically. When it's been there for a while and dust sticks to it, you have an even worse mess.

And I'm not kidding about it being like or worse than flypaper. Just ask anyone else who's ever had to clean up after them. Don't take my word for it, go out and see it for yourself. It's atrocious!

Also, read what some others have written about the same thing:
http://liaoyusheng.com/archives/travel/20041105_ten_reasons_why_china_sucks.php
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/lofiversion/index.php/t13892.html
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2&tid=570320&page=6

I won't post all the URLs I found from other people who've posted comments on the web about how filthy Chinese people seem to be and their lack of personal hygene, but there's plenty there.

Go into some of the Chinese restaurants in downtown Pueblo, they are not very clean. If you don't eat your food, it'll end up on someone else's plate. I should know, I've worked in one of them, won't say which one, tho.

But hey, I'm just one of those people who doesn't know what they're talking about and allegedly uses secret sources that only I know about.

Is this enough to put me on your idiot list yet? lol

large
09-30-2007, 11:06 AM
Aww, c'mon . . I've known people of every ethnic and racial group, and usually the first, and often the second generation maintain "old country" customs and preferences. To the American, often these things are either "Distasteful" or "Unclean" . . certainly not up to our standards.

And it kinda depends on where in the USA we come from. The American "Urbanites" aren't anywhere as tolerant as might be a rural farmer or rancher . . and of course the new "American" reflects that also, and I'm sure practices of a rural Chinese or Vietnamese would shock hell out of any urban American . . especially if they were a close neighbor . .

Lexi notes the re-use of foodstuffs and the "Thrifty" nature of some Chinese . . This is not uncommon to any of the older groups of immigrants who came to the USA before WWII or even shortly thereafter, no matter where they came from. There's many stories about the old Wops and BoJons who came here, worked at the mill and died . . leaving hundreds of thousands of dollars hidden in walls, floors or safe deposit boxes . . they weren't crazy, it was just that where they came from they had nothing, so when they got here they got by on what it took, and ratholed the rest . . Pretty much the same way with the Chinese and other Asian people who came here from nothing . .

And as for the "Re-use" of foodstuffs . . Heh, heh, this country isn't that far from that in the past . . during the thirties, very little food went to waste. Somebody ate it . . because, most everybody was hungry. Even popular music of the time shows that. If they weren't singing about love, they were singing about food . . and they sung a lot about food! Clear up to the end of the war . . back then, "leftovers" weren't the norm, because they seldom had enough, and that's the same with those poor immigrants today, even from other countries than East Asia. To them, the idea that you might leave a half a sirloin on your plate is obscene . . somebody could eat that . .

User No Longer With Us
09-30-2007, 01:17 PM
I'm not on an anti-Chinese campaign by any means, but their sanitary practices, or lack thereof, are the major cause of most of the illnesses around the world today.

There are serious sanitary issues in many parts of the world, not just China. Africa is known to such problems as well, and many illnesses have also originated in Africa. However, the most of the serious illnesses, especially influenza types, that have killed so many people around the world all come from China, and are perpetuated there. India is another country with some serious health related concerns, however there don't seem to be very many diseases that originate there and spread around the world, like they do from Africa and China.

I strongly believe that there is a reason why so many diseases seem to originate in China, and if they would clean up their act, then perhaps it would cut down on some of the illnesses we see globally and the rest of the world would be a little healthier.

Gene
09-30-2007, 01:50 PM
The Great Influenza
1918 - 1919
Also known as the Spanish Flu (although it is likely that it began in the United States), the Great Influenza was most likely the deadliest plague in history. The extremely virulent influenza virus killed an estimated 50 to 100 million people in the space of just six months. And unlike other influenza outbreaks, it didn't just target the old, and the very young. One study says that it struck 8 to ten percent of all young adults.

The pandemic was no doubt magnified by conditions existing during World War I, especially with large numebrs of young men packed into very close quarters in military barracks. The flu is said to have begun as an isolated mutation in Haskell County, Kansas, and transmitted through the movement of American soldiers from base to base.

The numbers killed by this flu are even more staggering, when you consider that the world's population at the time was just 1.8 billion. A similar outbreak today, therefore, could kill 350 MILLION people in a similar time span.

Hospitals would be overwhelmed. During a typical flu season in the United States, hospital respirator use approaches 100 percent. In a pandemic flu outbreak, most people would not be able to get respirators or hospital care.

This nightmare scenario is what drives the concern about the avian, or bird flu outbreak. Memories of the Great Influenza are what sparked the media frenzy over such things as the Swine Flu outbreak of the 1970s and the SARS incident of the early 2000s.

Without being alarmist, the outbreak of a global flu pandemic (avian flu or any other kind), is the number one public health threat today. Unfortunately, the United States government is entirely unprepared. The political reality is that other, less deadly diseases get much more money and attention because of their powerful lobbies.


The Black Death
1300s - 1400s, with further outbreaks into the 1700s.

The Black Death is the name commonly given to the epidemic outbreaks of bubonic plague that killed nearly a third of the population of Europe -- as many as 34 million people. It is said to have killed similar numbers in China and India. The Middle East also was hit hard. Although no totals are known, a 1348 - 1349 outbreak may have killed 400,000 in Syria. Similar numbers for Africa are reasonable.

So, the total worldwide almost certainly reaches close to 100 million.The reason this is not considered the worst, however, is that the Black Death killed those 100 million over a period of 200 years. The Great Influenza killed that number in six months.


The Black Death is traditionally attributed to one of the three forms of the plague caused by the bacterium Y.pestis (bubonic, pneumonic and septicemic). Some modern researchers, however, think it may have been caused by an Ebola like virus, or anthrax.


Malaria

Malaria most likely is the the greatest killer of humans in history. Even today, the World Health Organization estimates that it kills 2.7 million people a year; WHO says that it kills 2,800 children a day

The tragedy is that malaria is entirely preventable. After World War II, it disappeared almost entirely thanks to the use of DDT. However, with the banning of that pesticide, malaria has made a comeback. .


AIDS
1981? to present
Although it pales in comparison to the total deaths caused by influenza, malaria and other epidemic diseases, AIDs is on the list of the worst plagues of all time. Since 1981, 25 million deaths have been attributed to the disease.

Like Malaria, the tragedy is that the deaths are entirely preventable, since AIDS is transmitted, not through the air, or food or water, but through known human behaviors.

The "Common" Flu
The flu is responsible for an average of 36,000 deaths a year in the United States. AIDS, in comparison, causes about 15,000 deaths a year in the United States. That makes the "common" flu more than twice the killer that AIDs is.


The Plague of Justinian
541 AD
Most likely a bubonic plague, this one killed one quarter of the population surrounding the Mediterranean. At its height, it killed 10,000 a day in Constantinople.


The First Cholera Pandemic
1817 - 1823
The outbreak began in Calcutta and quickly spread to the rest of the subcontinent, eventually extending as far as the Middle Eastm southern Russia and China.

There is absolutely no way to know how many died, because records were not kept. However, the British Army recorded 100,000 deaths among its native and European troops, so the mortality must have been staggering.

Infected rice apparently was to blame for the start of the outbreak.

There have been seven pandemic outbreaks of cholera in since this one. The seventh began in 1961, and according to the World Health Organization continues today. In 1999, WHO recorded more than 9,000 cholera deaths.

Cholera is caused by the bacteria Vibrio cholerae and is spread by drinking water and food contaminated with the bacteria.


The Antonine Plague
165 - 180 AD
A suspected smallpox outbreak, it may have killed as many as five million. 5,000 a day were dying in Rome.


The Asiatic (Russian) Flu
1889 - 1890
First reported in Russia in May of 1889, it hit North America in December. By February 1890, it had travelled to South America. Later, it hit Inaid and Australia. The flu had a very high mortality rate, killing at least 250,000 in Western Europe.


Smallpox Epidemics Among Native Americans
1492 - 1900
Although no one knows for sure, various sources estimate that the pre Columbian population of the Americas was around 75 million, with as many as 12 million living in North America. A US census count in 1900 put the Native American poulation at 237,000. That is, by an standard, a precipitious drop in population.

While there are dozens of things to blame for this decline, the spreading of European diseases -- especially the highly virulent smallpox -- throughout the Native American populations was a major factor. The smallpox (and other disease) outbreaks among Native Americans, therefore, must rank as one of the worst outbreaks of disease of all time.

Various Typhus Epidemics

Caused by the bacteria Rickettsia prowazekii, and transmitted by body lice, typhus has been responsible for untold deaths. During Napoleon's retreat from Russia, more of his soldiers died from typhus than were killed by the Russians. The disease also exacerbated the Irish potato famine.

During World War I, typhus outbreaks are said to have killed as many as nine million (civilians included).

The Plague of Athens in 420 BC was most likely the first recorded outbreak of Athens.

Typhus outbreaks were averted during the Second World War with aggressive delousing campaigns using DDT.

Polio

The 1952 polio outbreak killed 3,000 in the United States. A 1916 US epidemic killed 6,000. Although it has virtually disappeared in the US since the 1955 invention of the vaccine, it still appears around the world.

Typhoid Fever Outbreaks

Typhoid is spread by water and food infected by the salmonela bacteria. It has largely disappeared with modern sanitation, but was a major killer in olden days (wells and outhouses shared the same water tables).

Typhoid killed Queen Victoria's husband Prince Albert and her son, Edward.

In 1906, a cook named Mary Mallon gained eternal fame as Typhoid Mary when she was traced as the source of an outbreak among the moneyed set in New York.She was a carrier, who did not herself get sick, and was said to have infected 33 people, 3 of whom died. When she refused to stop working as a cook, she was quarantined for life on North Brother Island.

But Mary was not an isolated case. The New York Health department knew of dozens of carriers, and in 1906 recorded 600 typhus deaths.

large
09-30-2007, 03:50 PM
All kinds of things come from Asia . . diseases, basically because there are so many people (and critters) living close together, and in the extremely close proximities they are to one another, provide a fertile place for viruses to mutate, evolve and spread, often before anyone has been able diagnose the new disease.

But many good things have come from the East also including, according to most anthropologists, possibly your uncle, who might have been a chinaman, instead of a Monkey . .

User No Longer With Us
09-30-2007, 08:38 PM
Gene, where did you get your information? The Spanish flu originated in China, in Hong Kong, and when it spread to Spain it mutated there and found it's way across the globe killing billions in it's path.

Black Death, aka Black Plague, originated in China, too.

So do our recent and current versions of the flu and "common colds".

AIDS is mostly a sexually transmitted disease and originated in Africa, allegedly starting from people having sex with primates.

Cholera I believe started in India, and Malaria in South America.

Typhoid was most prevalent in the US during the 1800s and into the 1900's but can also still be found globally.

etc etc etc