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View Full Version : Do We Need To Change Our Immigration Laws?



large
01-12-2005, 07:02 PM
Weekly, almost daily at times, we hear about our immigration problems. Mostly concerning the Illegal Immigrants crossing our Southern Border with Mexico. There are arguments about what should be done, build a high fence, put Troops down there, and on, and on, and on . . But none of it works, because the people who come, mostly poor, uneducated and desperate, the people from Mexico are willing to risk incarceration, hardship, even death to come to America. To work . . . Not to become citizens, about that they don't care really. If citizenship were bestowed on them by a Politician looking for votes, so be it, but they don't come for that particularily. They come to work . . To make a living . . To send Yankee Dollars back to Mexico so that their poor families may share this "wealth". U.S. Census estimates that the Illegals from Mexico send back as much as 66 Billion Dollars a year in American Currency, every year!

You can see why President Vincente Fox doesn't want the American Government to change anything!

But we can! Lets just change the law so that there's no reason for an Illegal Alien to be here. Why not a law that would work similar to the OSHA laws in this country? A large percentage of the illegals working in this country are employed by the Meat Packing Industry, the Construction Industry, and numerous business' who employ sub-contractors to do a large part of their work for them. If OSHA can cite a General Contractor for a Concrete Finisher failing to wear safety glasses, the INS can cite the same General for that employee being an "Illegal" and as it would be with an OSHA citation, a $75000 per worker fine would be levied. Same with the homeowner who gets caught employing an Illegal to do the yard work, Bingo, $75000 Fine! Per worker!

I bet after the word got around that these fines were non negotiable, I'd be willing to bet a worker without certification couldn't get a job in this country doing ANYTHING! And they would almost immediately quit streaming across the border. You could take down the fences, take away the guards, open up the borders to trade. Just have the INS doing what it's supposed to do, keep track of the people who come to work here and whose papers expire or whatever, and catching the people who would hire Illegals.

Pretty simple really . . . .

User No Longer With Us
01-12-2005, 07:56 PM
You raise some very good and valid points, but it's not as simple as "changing the immigration laws".

It's not the laziness in enforcing our existing immigration laws that's making people cross the border, it's all the other goodies that the US has to offer. And, it's not just the Mexicans taking advantage of it.

Rather than changing laws, we need to enforce our existing ones. I'm all for temporarily closing our borders to immigrants, and for every one that we have to deport, send the bill to their country. Once their country starts getting tired of having to pay the bill, they'll enforce a few laws of their own so they won't have to pay anymore.

I know people who bring their elderly relatives to the US, they become citizens without having to go through the exam because of their age. These folks have never contributed a thing...not one penny in tax dollars or anything...to the US, yet they come here, become naturalized, and live on disability and get medical benefits and free or reduced prescriptions.

If the US would stop allowing that BS, then there'd be more of those funds for natural born US Citizens, or naturalized citizens who've spent their lives here contributing to this country.

As well, they come to this country and get welfare, foodstamps, or other government aid that's not even available to natural born citizens.

We need to put a stop to this. How many other countries have such liberal financial aid for foreigners? I can't think of any.

I think that we're being used, and we're allowing it.

I could go on and on, but I won't...lol...I'm sure you get the picture, though.

I'm in favour of temporarily closing the borders to immigrants until the US is financially back on it's feet and our own citizens are taken care of FIRST.

Amberthebrat
01-12-2005, 08:10 PM
Immigration Laws could definately stand to be looked at a bit closer, that's for sure ... but then again so do many other laws :lol:

large
01-12-2005, 08:39 PM
One of my previous jobs was a Project Manager for a road building contractor. Our paving crews consisted of Mexican Nationals, all of whom, I assumed at the time, had Green Cards. Each crew had a leader, one who spoke good english, talked the talk, you might say . . He and I, on several occasions had a chance to "Bat the Breeze", and I learned through our conversations, that he had no desire to become an American Citizen, as 90% of his income went home to Chihuaha to his family and his ranch. His kids went to private school, he owned three new Chevrolets, two pickups and a car, and ran about 500 head of cows. Pretty much the same for the rest of the crew. They didn't speak english, nor did they want to learn, why? They didn't intend to stay or assimulate.

However, a sub-Contractor I knew of who was in the Concrete Business would lose more than 75% of his crew every time the INS showed up on a job they were on . . the amazing part was . . They'd get raided by INS on a Wednesday afternoon, the INS would load all of 'em up and take off with 'em. By Tuesday of the next week, every one of them would be back on the job! The Bus that took 'em to Juarez hadn't even got back to Pueblo yet . .

Right now we are enforcing a "Catch and Release program" that costs a lot of money, ties up a lot of manpower and does absolutely no good.

The laws we have now can't be enforced practically. It's time to do something else.

User No Longer With Us
01-12-2005, 08:44 PM
Like I said before, Large....closing the borders for a while might not be a bad idea.

If you look closely, we have some pretty stringent immigration laws as it is. They aren't being enforced.

That thing about the green card...that's an enforcement issue right there.

The other thing, too, though, is that you have groups building housing especially for illegals, which also encourages them to come over. Also, we have people employing them rather than citizens because they know they can pay illegals lower wages. This is also illegal.

I see your points, but unless we enforce our existing laws, why bother to make new ones? They won't be enforced either.

sweet_chin_music
01-13-2005, 12:07 AM
I'm of the view that legal immigration is fine. Have the proper forms filled out and immigrate on a Visa.

However, illegal aliens must be stopped. Sadly, there isn't a simple answer to the problem. Even if workers/employees were caught and the laws enforced, both sides would be willing to take risks.

The area that concerns me more than workers coming into the United States and sending money back to Mexico is the fact that some of these people crossing are bad, bad dudes. Some are wanted for murder and rape in Mexico and they cross and live here among us. It's no secret that both borders are much too lax. Several terrorist cells have been caught streaming in from Canada and new worries place Mexico as the new crossing point for terrorists.

One solution that we discussed in class was creating a prison system much like the one seen on the shores of Guantanamo. Instead of spending the money to send the illegals back to Mexico over and over, create a system that keeps them for a period of 2-3 years then release them back into Mexico. In honesty, the program would cost about the same as what we spend sending aliens back over and over. While we have them in custody, we can find out if they are wanted in Mexico. If so, either send them back to Mexico or sentence them to the same sentence they would get if they committed the act in the US. If an illegal alien knew he was going to spend 2-3 years in prision if he was caught, it might cause them to re-think their choice.

An excellent book that discusses this problem is "Hard Line: Life and Death on the US-Mexico Border" by Ken Ellingwood. I'm not sure if it was mentioned in this book or another, but there is a story of an illegal alien that has been caught over 250 times. By the time travel fares, paperwork and man hours are spent, they figure he has cost the United States over $300,000.

large
01-13-2005, 08:06 AM
I don't think you quite understand. Here's how OSHA works . . . They do not send people out to your job and actively watch and inspect your job to have assurance of compliance. If there is an accident, rest assured you will deal with OSHA, and in all likelyhood be looking at an initial citation of over $100k. I won't go into the process farther, but rest assured, the cost of an OSHA citation is enough to make it VERY UNECONOMICAL to repeat the violation! Hence, if you wish to keep from becoming familiar with their Inspectors you will "Passively Comply".

That's the point with the change of Law I propose . . . Make it VERY UNECONOMICAL to get caught with Undocumented Aliens working for you or on your job site working for Sub-Contractors. If one fine costs more than you'd ever save in labor costs employing illegals, you'd look a little closer at who pours your concrete or cleans your pisser.

Just add this little clinging vine to the law . . $500 reward to anyone offering information about the employment of illegals. There's nobody in this country that would hire an Undocumented Alien if they were staring a $100,000 fine in the face. There's a Law you could enforce!

As for the illegals currently here . . Put that law in effect, Mexico will have to put up fences to keep them from going back! 99% of those people come here to work, not get on welfare. No work, they'll go back, as long as some politician doesn't decide to give them amnesty or instant citizenship so he'll get some votes.

eatmordonuts®™
01-16-2005, 10:11 PM
It is a travesty that some bad people come over, along with some bad things, but in reality most of the people who come here are hard working people looking for an oppurtunity. Have OSHA fine the employers and contracters!!!! That is insane when you stop to think about the economic impact that would have! It is true they send alot of money back home, but who are these employers and contracters going to hire to do those jobs at that price, certainly not you or I, any american thats willing to work those jobs already are. We send the willing workers off and lock them on the other side of the border, then fine the employers....Are you willing to pay 20 bucks for a hamburger down at McDonalds? You think the cost of construction is high now? Americans wont cut meat for $10/hr (they only pay 8 here in Nebraska) If you think your top sirloin is expensive now, how much will it cost you when the packing plant has to pay $30 dollars an hour to a union employee who wont work any more than they have to. Things need to be different, we do need to change the welfare system to eliminate non citizens...but more than anything we need them here to work those jobs! For all our pocket books!

User No Longer With Us
01-17-2005, 07:16 AM
but who are these employers and contracters going to hire to do those jobs at that price, certainly not you or I...[quote]

Precisely, but what they are doing is ILLEGAL. It is ILLEGAL to hire ILLEGALS.

[quote]any american thats willing to work those jobs already are.

That's a crock. I know plenty of Americans who are out of work because contractors are hiring illegals. Illegal Migrant Farm workers are always hired instead of American citizens. Why? Like you said, it's cheaper labour.

The same with some local contractors and builders.

Thing is, in the long run, it really DOES cost taxpayers more money, so it's not really "cheaper" after all. It costs the US, as a whole, quite a bit of money to go after the illegals, to prosecute their crimes, etc.

You mentioned that some of the immigrants here are sending money home...do you know why? It's so they can smuggle their families into the US. They use that money to fund their little "underground railroads". They then think that they can get their families into this country THEN go through the process of hiring a crooked attorney to "save" them from being deported. These folks eventually end up becoming citizens, EVEN THOUGH many of them have committed some serious crimes like rape or murder. I know a foreign family that routinely does this, and they aren't Mexican. They smuggle people in from china, put them to work in their chinese restaurant, and have them hide out in their garage. They live in the rafters....they've created a room in the rafters of their garage by placing boards that can be used as a floor. They use stacked crates to climb up there and that's where these illegals stay until they have some kind of documentation, which they get through their attorney.

If people want to come to the US and immigrate and be hard working citizens, then fine. LET THEM DO IT LEGALLY.

Right now the US is allowing too much abuse of the system by illegals and it's time to put a stop to it. I'm in favour of closing the borders for now until this matter is dealt with, because it's out of control.

I'm also in favour of recalling each and every one of our elected officials who are ignoring this matter and replacing them with more competant people.

large
01-17-2005, 08:26 AM
The other side of the coin as the continued series in the paper showed . . was the paperwork required to become a "Legal" immigrant (or worker) from Mexico (paperwork varies, depending on the country you're from, kind of Discriminatory) is somewhere between 7 to 15 years. Plus you must have proof of a job and other timley requirements, none that the average human could keep on line for that amount of time. Kind of a "Catch 22" deal.

When we adjust the laws making it "un-economic" to be caught employing "Illegals" we must streamline the process for both work permits and Immigrants . . . And that will take a lot more doing than adding fines to a law.

As for the Asians, the "Lawyer" thing happens because, as I said above, the laws are discriminatory. Different nationalities and ethnic groups are looked at differently by the Immigration people for a myriad of reasons, some making sense, I guess, some being pure Bureaucratic B.S. Again, this needs to be changed. This country is made up of immigrants, all of us, including the "Native American" are immigrants, it's just the Time Line that makes a difference. And we still need them, for many reasons.

Contact your Legislators, it's time for a change.

User No Longer With Us
01-17-2005, 10:18 AM
Believe it or not, EVERY country was made up of immigrants at one time or another.

Thing is, we're running out of room. Developers keep taking up prime land where animals roam and farmers grow our food and building houses and businesses.

There's a bigger picture here. There comes a time when immigration needs to at least be put on hold, at least for a time.

There's such a thing as too much, and right now, things are spinning out of control. WAY out of control.

It's time to stop, regain control, and go from there.

large
01-17-2005, 10:39 AM
Out of room, hmmm, yeah there's probably something to that. Probably why so many people were killed in the recent Tsunami. Too many people living where nature occasionally spends her might. Same for the mudslide in CA. Many years ago when I lived out there, all those little towns along the beach didn't exist. Now, anyplace that MIGHT be desirable is populated, pretty densely, so anytime a natural event takes place out there, there's a development or city in the way. It's no longer an "Event", it's a Disaster!

Kind of like buying a trailer house on the Florida Pennisula where they have at least a Hurricane a year, and sometimes three times a year . . . well, ALL the trailers got blown away this year.

There's places where good sense tells you NOT to live. Is it overpopulation or stupidity?

User No Longer With Us
01-17-2005, 12:17 PM
I assert that it appears to me that there are times when stupidity leads to over popluation.

As far as the tsunami: I don't think "population" in and of itself had anything to do with why so many people got hurt or killed, much of it was ignorance believe it or not.

When some saw the waters recede so quickly, they headed for the hills and survived while those who didn't know better stayed where they were, some gathering the fish that were suddenly exposed. Those who stayed on lower ground were overtaken, while those who immediately left for higher ground survived.

In the case of the US, I'd say it's both stupidity and greed. The greed being that land is being literally stolen from people by governing agencies and sold at high price to developers. Do the families who have their land stolen from them...families who may have farmed that land for a couple of hundred years...receive any of the benefits from what the governing bodies reap by stealing the land and selling it to developers? NO.

Not only so, but the apathy shown in that our existing immigration laws are not only being ignored, but the government is creating new ways to encourage illegal immigration is a downfall to this nation.

I don't care how much paperwork someone has to do to get into this country legally. If they can't do it, then they should stay out. Pure and simple.

Our rights, afforded us by the US Constitution, are for US, not for them.

Our trying to be so nice and help everyone out is going to be the reason why we don't survive in the future. The US Government needs to take care of the US folks for a while and stop worrying about everyone else. We have plenty of needy here in the US that would do well to benefit from the programs that aren't being offered them because they're being offered to foreigners instead.

ogar
01-18-2005, 10:00 PM
I have friends in Guatamala doing volunteer work and we recently had an email discussion of these issues. The starting cost for a Guatmalan to travel to the US is $3,000 to $5000 which excludes the many "gratuities" along the way to insure their safe and free passage. To travel to our promised land from such a distance these folks are not only risking life and limb, but a fair portion of what could be their life savings. Their area is agricultural with rich soils. Corn is not only a historically profitable crop, but the rituals of corn planting and harvest are a part of their spiritual heritage. The average small plot corn farmer can no longer make enough of a living to provide for a family. It is basically cheaper to import heavily subsidized and industrialized corn from the US. My friend told of one of his Guatamalan friends who now lives in Indiana, sharing a house and one car with ten "immigrants". All to provide the basics of food and shelter to his homeland family. What ever little he can save is sent back to his family.

I see both sides of the immigration legal issues, but with some trepidation, I have to propose that as the last great global super power, we seem to have inherited a role as a global peace keeper and caretaker. If our path is to restrict immigration, what obligations do we have to share our wealth, technology, and fairness of governing with third world countries. My friends describe a situation where the US actually shares a responsibility in the motives of people to immigrate to the US. In an increasingly global society, it is no longer us and them, but more us and us.

As a fisherman, I've noticed that when one fellow starts catching a bunch of fish, most fisherman in eyesight will start crowding in on the lucky fisherman. Often the first fisherman will get disgusted and quite and the fishing will go to heck. The only solution for the first fisherman is to share the fish or to teach the other fishermen to do better in their own locations. I've not heard of an equitable solutions where we make it illegal for fisherman to change their fishing spot.

User No Longer With Us
01-19-2005, 07:08 AM
what obligations do we have to share our wealth, technology, and fairness of governing with third world countries

We do not now, nor have we ever had, such an obligation. Any such acts are completely willful.

As far as your analogy concerning fishing:

The US is not the sea, and we are not fish.

ogar
01-19-2005, 04:10 PM
We do not now, nor have we ever had, such an obligation. Any such acts are completely willful.

The obligation I was thinking of somewhat relates the the Golden Rule, which I assume has no national boundaries. Of course to people of certain faiths or non-faiths, I suppose this isn't an obligation.

large
01-19-2005, 06:10 PM
Don't want to start something here, but the Islamafascist terrorist or whatever you want to call them are something the human race has not faced since Attila the Hun. Horrendous Murder of anyone who does not see things their way in backward countries full of backward people. And without some sort of resistance . . THEY'RE COMING TO YOUR TOWN! OR THE TOWN YOUR FAMILY LIVES IN!

And if you and your family aren't "Believers" then you are a target to be slaughtered! Don't believe it? Read the news! Here, in our country a family of Four was butchered by Islamist Activists when the deceased father of the deceased family disagreed with the Muslims on an internet chat room. Dunno how many Iraqi Shiite Muslims were killed today in Iraq by Car Bombs and Homocide Bombers of the Sunni Belief, but nobody goes out and kills themdselves and other humans because of a religious belief alone, there is hate attached! Don't kid yourself.

And if the Iraqi Democracy idea doesn't work out and spread into the other areas of the Islamic World . . grab yer ***, we're in for a long 21st Century!

Our country and the GNP we create pays for the World Police Force . . We are it, pal, Police Force, Fire Department, Ambulance Service, like it or not . . And there are lots of little countries and their populations that don't like it . . Until they need a dictator removed or need help or rescue from the neighboring dictator . . or currently, take Indonesia, a corrupt government, Islamic rebels, 100,000 dead, needing help, food, medicine, and especially logistical help . . telling the American government our Aircraft carrier shouldn't be in their waters, we shouldn't put our fighters in the air (which is the Carrier's protection, I believe), our Helicopters can land only long enough to unload, and no oversight on the money given . . I say screw 'em, let 'em live off the beached fish . . .

That's a real hard attitude, but our country does not OWE any of these little overpopulated, backward countries the time of day. They could emulate the government of this country if they chose, but it's easier to elect some drug dealer for life and then piss and moan about how bad things are and how good those #@*! Americans have got it. So they come into this country illegally and expect the benefits that others have paid for in Blood.

It's easy to feel sorry for these people, especially their children . . but I found it hard, once I found out what caused them, to bring children into this world that I couldn't afford, and that's often the problem in those countries that have so many starving people . . They can't stop reproducing! It's called "Screwing yourself away from the dinner table"!

And as far as a "Golden Rule" applies, there is NO Country that gives more on a daily basis than this country, in aid to governments, in aid to humanity and in military aid, like I said above . . We are the ones who come when called, 99% of the time. Don't believe it? Try calling France, or Spain . . . betcha the line's busy . . .

You are doing good down there, in spite of being an American, but don't feel guilty and NEVER apologize for being one . . Most of these countries started out about the same time we did . . they have had a chance . . And they still don't get it! You can spread an Idea, but don't badmouth the country that helped you get an education that even most of those Country's Leaders have never had!

User No Longer With Us
01-19-2005, 07:04 PM
OK, let me clarify this "no obligation" bit...

I am a very strong Christian woman, first of all. So I understand your bit about faith.

SO let me put it this way:

We have no LEGAL obligation. If you think we have a moral obligation, fine. But, let me ask you this: Don't you think this country should be morally obligated to take care of it's own first before trying to come to the rescue of the rest of the world?

We're ignoring our own in order to serve someone else....sounds a little co-dependant to me.

By the way, large...are you distantly related to the late, and very great, General Patton, by chance? I like what you wrote, and I'm sure he would too.

large
01-19-2005, 07:40 PM
Nope, no relation at all. Of course, I'd be proud to say so, but alas, just some ol' dude, served his country in the Army years ago, and calls 'em like he see's them.

As I said previously, Political Correctness is neither correct nor tolerant. It has no place in this country . . it stifles freedom of speech, exchange of ideas. If one is afraid to state the truth for fear they may hurt someone's feelings, they are either a fool of a coward.

And thank you for the compliment . . .

eatmordonuts®™
01-19-2005, 08:11 PM
where do you get your information on how it costs the tax payer so much more than what not having them here would do to inflation? YOur friend is out of work because he/she cannot perform for the price, simple economics, growth = getting the most work for the least cost. Those illegals can out work your friend and do it for less money and is statistically more reliable. Again simple economics in a free society. Your friend needs to get into a different profession, unfortunatly.

User No Longer With Us
01-19-2005, 09:39 PM
donuts....think about it this way:

Illegals cost money, and who gives a rip who they can outwork or whether they can? They're still societal leeches in that they are taking what rightfully belongs to our own citizens.

Do you know how much money it costs the taxpayers every time the INS has to raid a work place, ranch, or wherever, then take these people into custody, go through the legal system, and eventually deport them?

First, you have the wages paid to the INS agents, secretaries, etc. Next you have paperwork costs. Court costs. Legal costs. Food. Shelter costs and utilities costs associated with that. There's the travel expenses of deporting these folks, as well. And that's only the surface.

So where do you get off thinking that it's either cheap or free to the taxpayers to hire illegals?

As well, the money the illegals are making COULD be paid to Americans who need to feed their own children.

If the illegals want to come here so bad and work, let them do it legally. If they can't afford it, that's THEIR problem. They don't need to come here and steal our jobs, steal our healthcare, run our hospitals into the ground raising our medical and medical insurance costs because they are seen for free and the hospitals have to compensate by raising the costs for those of us who pay for services...and so on and so on.

Not only so, but some illegals are living off of OUR welfare system, which we can't even afford for our own people...

So, if you're so big on economics, how is it that you don't see the economic threat that the illegals are posing to our communities?

ogar
01-19-2005, 09:40 PM
Getting back to what I think was the original proposition that sparked this lively debate, I think the issue was that immigration is robbing us of jobs and maybe causing a drain on our economy. Did you happen to look at where all those nice electronics and clothes and nick-knacks you had under your Christmas tree originated? Ever try to get help with you computer programs and figure out your talking to someone in India? And if I remember my history right China was the “terrorist” threat of just a few short years ago.

I support the laws of our country and agree that until the laws change, illegal is illegal. But from a money and job point of view it’s not a big part of the picture. Have you ever wondered if the reason why we don’t crack down more on illegal immigrants is because they are actually helping our economy with cheap labor? We seem to be the victims of wanting cheap goods, but perhaps don’t want to step up to reality and pay the price. But if we truly want to keep the wealth of our country here, lets talk about trade laws.

When it comes to providing for us first and them second and the moral issues, I wish my mind was as clear on this as Mr. Large. Among the drug lord governments and poor parental planning there are people just like us who just want to live a life where they can provide the basics of food and shelter for their families. If these people want to risk life and limb to come to our country, live ten to a house and car, and work very hard at unsavory jobs, are they really so different than our own ancestors? There is simply a huge imbalance between the rich and poor of the world. My proposition was to ask how much compassion we have for these folks, and what can we do to help. I don’t think the right answer is to stretch barbed wire across our borders and say that we are doing enough or that they are undeserving of any further efforts to help. There are always ways to do better. There are those of us who are just getting by, but there are also people who live in huge houses, drive fancy cars, and have about ten times more things that they really need. Isn’t there a little more room in our country to share?

User No Longer With Us
01-19-2005, 09:56 PM
they are actually helping our economy with cheap labor?

Look again. Illegals are hurting the economy, not helping it.

The wonderful toys under your Christmas tree weren't made by illegals coming into the country, but they may have been put together in a sweat shop in another country.

There's a difference.

In Arizona, three hospitals have been shut down because of having to see numerous illegal immigrants who could not pay their hospital bills. I fail to see how that helps the economy.

Oh, yes, cheap labour. What about the expensive medical bills? What about the clean up after them when they toss their feces out the car window, or pee in beer bottles on a job site then just walk off and leave them sitting there to be knocked over by someone else or an animal? (Yes, they really do this.)

How about what it costs to take our own children to the Dr because they caught lice from the illegals? Or got sick because they came in contact with human waste the illegals threw in the parking lot? (One apartment complex here in Pueblo has to deal with that on a daily basis...) That they throw their excrement in the parking lot shows that they may also not be very clean for having come in contact with that and not washed their hands. Then they touch our children, or something that our children touch, and our children get sick. It's called spreading germs.

What about the cost of prosecuting them when they commit crimes or sell drugs to your kids? How about the cost of getting your kids off the drugs they sell? It's more than money...

How about the cost to US Taxpayers for the welfare they get, the education their children get in our schools (along with the free lunches and more medical coverage and day care assistance), and the INS enforcement?

There's also the cost of housing them...do you think they pay for their housing? Not usually. They live off of the good graces of others, some in shelters, some in homes built only for illegal migrants. Whom do you think funded those projects?

Whom do you think pays their light bills, gas bills, water bills, etc? Them? no. They go to community action agencies for handouts, and apply for LEAP and other energy assistance programs.

There are programs specific to pay for them, US Citizens can't even get such help. Seems unfair to me, AND uneconomical.

So. Tell me again how cheap it is to keep these folks and employ them with jobs that should be rightfully going to our own people first?

ogar
01-20-2005, 06:52 AM
Lexi, I still consider illegal illegal. Since you have some very good points, what are you doing to change things.

User No Longer With Us
01-20-2005, 07:48 AM
There's not a lot I can do until our newly elected officials are all settled in. Once that's happened, I plan to approach them concerning this matter.

I'm also trying to find interested parties willing to discuss the matter and come up with a "game plan" to eventually take this matter to the polls, as it's more likely that We The People will act on it than waiting for the politicians.

It will take a lot of research and teamwork to put an effective plan together.

Are you interested?

large
01-20-2005, 07:58 AM
Ogar, if you will . . .

Illegal entry into this country is a crime, a federal felony I believe. Of course in most instances it's not treated this way, not even by the people whose jobs are to enforce it. But never the less, it, in itself is a crime, period! Once a person in this country's society becomes a criminal, he/she has to continue to skirt the law, and it's also a felony to lie or deceive governmental agencies for education, medical, or Welfare reasons. Therefore ALL Undocumented workers, Illegal Aliens, or whatever you will refer to them as . . are FUGITIVES . . and normally most fugitives will break other laws, local and state to remain such.

Secondly, the cost of keeping their families in this country is shared by our own indigent families, thus, making the pieces of the welfare pie that much smaller for all.

As far as the kind of work they do . . I will not say that the average Undocumented worker is taking a job from an American Citizen. In most cases the employer couldn't find an American Citizen willing to do the kind of work they do. On the other hand, a good many jobs that Undocumented workers hold are skilled or semi-skilled jobs in Construction, Meat Packing, Corporate Janitorial and other large Corporate Sub-contractors that need dependable, everyday hard working employees. And they are paid far better than minimum wages. True, there are sweatshops even in this country, and there a lot of Asian Illegals being smuggled into this country to work in them, as well as people from the South.

I don't hold much with the theory that the Illegals take jobs away from anybody. If an American Citizen wanted to work at any job held by an illegal all he has to do is go ask for a job, show up everyday, and do the work he's been asked to do. I've been there, done that . . At one time I was a Project Manager for a Construction Company, and Construction Labor is pretty hard to come by, if you're going to be picky about who's a citizen and who isn't. Most Citizen's comment about the work they had to do was; "Sh-t, I ain't gonna do that, that's wayy too much like work!" And usually that was after he'd shown up 15 minutes late to start!

No, we can use the immigrant's input in this country, but they must be willing to assimulate, and in order to do that they need to be here legally. As I have said in this thread, we need to adjust our punitive laws to make the employer of illegals realize it's uneconomical, that'll stop most of them from coming, and then we need to cease discriminating against who will come here as immigrants. I think a Mexican who's here legally(the hard way) is just as good a person as an Irishman who comes here, steps off the plane, Voila! a Citizen . . That has to change too!

Let's take this up with Ken Salazar, John Salazar, Wayne Allard . . Lets see what they have to say . . Bet not a lot!

User No Longer With Us
01-20-2005, 09:19 AM
I don't hold much with the theory that the Illegals take jobs away from anybody.

Try this perspective:

There are plenty of eligible people who are unemployed right now who would love to have such jobs. Maybe they lack the training...wouldn't it be nice if these employers would be willing to train them and hire them?

For every illegal alien that is holding an American job, there is an American who is out of work.

So call that what you will, we need to take care of our own first. When we no longer have unemployed people needing jobs, yet still have job positions to fill, then let's at that time consider other options. Until then, American jobs belong to American people and/or legal residents who have been granted work Visas. (And, believe me, I don't always agree with those, either.)

I will never hire an illegal to work for my company, I will never donate funds to help illegals in any way shape or form unless it's to help them become legal, and even then it would have to be a very special circumstance.

I have children to provide for. I'm not going to allow someone who is not legal take the bread out of my children's mouths, the clothes off their backs, their medical services away from them, or their seat in a classroom.

I don't know of any other country who is as lenient on illegals as the US is. We aren't hurting so badly for immigrants that we should have to do this, the population of this country is large enough already.


... as an Irishman who comes here, steps off the plane, Voila! a Citizen

It doesn't quite work that way. Granted, the immigration rules may be more relaxed for the English, Irish, Scottish, and so on than for Mexicans, Arabs, and Chinese. This is because of the higher risk for terrorism, drug smuggling, and (believe it or not) infectious diseases.

You can't just step off of Aer Lingus and Viola! you're now a US citizen...there are applications and costs and paperwork involved, including background checks and so forth. Of course, if you step off of Aer Lingus and give birth, that child is a US Citizen by birth as well as a Citizen of, say, Ireland, making the parents, who were visiting the country legally eligible to APPLY FOR US Citizenship.

If you were a stowaway on Aer Lingus, stepped off and gave birth, the child is still a US Citizen holding dual citizenship in, say, Ireland, but the mother is not eligible to apply for citizenship as she's here illegally, in which case she will probably be deported while her child is taken from her and placed in DHHS custody and placed for adoption to an American family. (That's another issue I disagree with, babies need to stay with their mothers.)

ogar
01-24-2005, 09:39 AM
Call your representative at 1-877-762-8762 and ask if he or she is on the Tom Tancredo Immigration Reform Caucus in the US House of Representatives? If your rep isn't--demand that he join because you are sick and tired of Americans jobs being given away to illegal aliens. You're sick of H-1B and L-1 visas as well as offshoring, insourcing and outsourcing.