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Thread: Chostner wants more action on mill levy question

  1. #11
    Forum Troll Gershon's Avatar
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    This morning I went for a hike along one of my favorite parts of the Fountain Creek. It doesn't seem to need fixed to me.

    There is little garbage in and around the creek until you get to University Park and areas south. Then the garbage is clustered around the storm drains and spreads from there.

    Maybe we should fix our own problems before spending so much time thinking about Colorado Springs.

    Last edited by Gershon; 09-30-2012 at 12:31 PM.

  2. #12
    Administrator Sandra's Avatar
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    Gershon, Colorado Springs IS part of our problem. When they contaminate Fountain Creek, we end up with their mess.

    We have enough of our own mess, I agree, but we don't need Colorado Springs adding to it.
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  3. #13
    Forum Troll Gershon's Avatar
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    Maybe in the next few weeks, I'll go check out the nature center and trails in Fountain. It looks like they have done a lot of good work up there.

    I found this study from 2007 which indicates that bird droppings were a big part of the problem for E-coli in the summer. Tomorrow morning, I'll see if I can get some videos to show just how many birds roost in the cat tails.

    I've read about Colorado Springs sometimes having spills.

    Well, it doesn't matter. I vote against all tax increases.

  4. #14
    Forum Royalty large's Avatar
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    Maybe we should fix our own problems before spending so much time thinking about Colorado Springs.
    X2 . . . .

    And one of them is to try to understand the physical makeup of the creek from where the basin starts to it's confluence with The Arkansas . . The Basin, to start with is very small, and d@mned near vertical. Apparently few of those involved in the planning understand that.

    The fact that Colorado Springs is where it is has nothing to do with the concept that when it rains cats n dogs anywhere between Woodland Park to the west, Palmer Divide to the North and about Calhan to the East, the fountain get's the runoff in a hurry. Water doesn't stand long on a hillside or a mountain. Gravity still works well . .

    Matter of fact, when you look at how the small basin Colorado Springs sits in drains, to retain the runoff from thunderstorm producing a half inch of rain in any part of the city, especially the part around the Garden of the Gods, you'd have to make all of the area from Manitou to about Lower nevada Avenue one giant retention pond . . and that would only work until it got full . .

    As gershon says and I concur, about half of the degradation of the water quality comes from the creek itself. Naturally. When the flow is nothing more than a trickle, natural contamination builds up. There's a lot of wildlife in those bottoms. One Gershon didn't mention is a herd of almost 200 elk (Yeah, I said ELK! About 200 of 'em) And there's bunches of Mule Deer, quite a few Antelope, and then, of course all the other wild critters that make up the ecological system of any environment with life giving water . . And all those critters live, die, eat, and crap in the direct flood plain of the creek. And as long as the water runs, you're going to have life and the waste that life leaves behind . .

    Most of these planners are grossly overthinking the problem. I see a little more water coming down the creek as beneficial to the creek and the water's quality. It won't change the days when it rains cats n dogs somewhere up there and the high water that Pueblo will see for a day or less, but that's what creeks do . . And physically, in most places, you can't dam it up . . There's not really a bottom to it . . it's a lot of shifting quicksand and there's stuff in there that's been there almost 150 years, like rail cars and a locomotive . . just to mention a couple . . add to that, the sand stores up a lot of that waste and e-coli and then releases it when the flows increase . .

    These people need to go look really hard at any other creek that either has a low flow or a partial one and see what it does . .

    I do believe it to be a problem that has been "Over-Thunk" . . .
    "A man with a firearm is a citizen... a man without one is a subject"

  5. #15
    Administrator Sandra's Avatar
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    Large, my reference concerning Colorado Springs isn't about birds and wildlife - it's about how many times they have spilled raw sewage down Fountain Creek then failed to clean it up without a lawsuit. It's also about how they're ripping off landowners in the name of their pipe line - if I remember right they offered $100 to each landowner for the time and trouble of disrupting their lives and digging up their property to lay pipe, which is a rather insolent amount.

    The extra water coming down the creek would be beneficial so long as Colorado Springs maintains its own systems - but they have no stormwater fee system in place to pay for those right now, and the city's inability to properly manage their funds has resulted in the city choosing to remove public trash bins, street lights, and even choosing to stop taking care of certain grounds in the area. What makes us think, then, that they'd place any higher of a priority on maintaining proper sewage so that it doesn't end up here again?

    There is a system in place but how long can it last if it's not properly maintained due to lack of funding?

    This is a far greater hazard than animal pee...
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  6. #16
    Forum Troll Gershon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandra View Post
    Large, my reference concerning Colorado Springs isn't about birds and wildlife - it's about how many times they have spilled raw sewage down Fountain Creek then failed to clean it up without a lawsuit. It's also about how they're ripping off landowners in the name of their pipe line - if I remember right they offered $100 to each landowner for the time and trouble of disrupting their lives and digging up their property to lay pipe, which is a rather insolent amount.

    The extra water coming down the creek would be beneficial so long as Colorado Springs maintains its own systems - but they have no stormwater fee system in place to pay for those right now, and the city's inability to properly manage their funds has resulted in the city choosing to remove public trash bins, street lights, and even choosing to stop taking care of certain grounds in the area. What makes us think, then, that they'd place any higher of a priority on maintaining proper sewage so that it doesn't end up here again?

    There is a system in place but how long can it last if it's not properly maintained due to lack of funding?

    This is a far greater hazard than animal pee...
    It wasn't until the 70's that efficient water treatment plants even existed.

    One thing I haven't seen is an e-coli concentation gradiant between Colorado Springs and Pueblo. From the report I read, bird poop is the major contributer.

    It may be that the 40 miles or so of the Fountain Creek between Colorado Springs and Pueblo would purify the water naturally if the natural ecosystem was allowed to flourish. Instead, they clear out "weeds" that might purify the water. Perhaps the real problem is the big park in Fountain.

  7. #17
    Administrator Sandra's Avatar
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    Here's some interesting reading for you, Gershon.

    http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw/consumer/pdf/hist.pdf

    Meanwhile, it used to be said that water in Colorado is purified naturally every 100 feet. Part of that having to do with the minerals (rocks, etc) in the water that acted as cleansing agents. Today we have so much man-made garbage going on that it does interfere with the ecosystem - so you make a very good point.
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  8. #18
    Forum Royalty large's Avatar
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    First of all, Sandra, the same year, while we (and the Pueblo Chieftain) were cussing and calling down Colorado Springs for their "Sewage Spills" we (Pueblo wastewater) had three of our own, and while they weren't of the magnitude of one of the 'Spring's, they were notable but not so much to the paper and the Pueblo Water Board . . And Nobody downstream has a newspaper that could have blasted Pueblo for doing much the same Colorado Springs does to us . .

    On the "Pollution Factor" the Fountain is a "Creek", not a river, and while it has a year round flow, that flow is minimal. Thus Colorado Springs and Fountain do not have the amount of flowing water to distribute their "PPM" which is the EPA's way of measuring pollutiants in natural waterways . . We have the Arkansas, with a guarantee for enough flow to keep a Kayak course operational. Which was agreed to by Pueblo's Powers that be so that they didn't have to rebuild and bring their water treatment plant up to today's mEPA standards as far as "PPM" go . .

    The Fountain is a small, vertical drainage basin, with a very short flow run. Thus, one can hardly expect the same self cleaning effects that either the Arkansas or the Mississippi have working for them . .

    And, as Gershon has stated, a lot of the e-coli comes from birds and other wild game. Without the Flora to strain and filter the water when it comes up above it's basic flow line, it's carried into the mainstream and the e-coli is deposited in the sands of the lower creek and is a contiminant long after the high water is gone . . Just waiting for some "Water Expert' to come and sample it and report that the City of Colorado Springs is "Contaminating" the Fountain . . In headline fashon . .

    This is part of a fairly complex ecosystem that, apparently few of the planners understand . .

    Noticably, there are only 5 landowners involved in this plan. One would tend to think that all the land owners on either side of Fountain Creek, all the way to the city limits, would have input, but that's not so . . .
    "A man with a firearm is a citizen... a man without one is a subject"

  9. #19
    Forum Troll Gershon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandra View Post
    Here's some interesting reading for you, Gershon.

    http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw/consumer/pdf/hist.pdf

    Meanwhile, it used to be said that water in Colorado is purified naturally every 100 feet. Part of that having to do with the minerals (rocks, etc) in the water that acted as cleansing agents. Today we have so much man-made garbage going on that it does interfere with the ecosystem - so you make a very good point.
    Sandra,

    Good article. Thanks.

    Effective water purification hasn't been around all that long.

    I wonder what the Fountain Creek looked like when there was no water treatment and more industry in Colorado Springs. Then there was the agricultural runoff. There were a lot more farms back then.

  10. #20
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    Colorado Springs was never really an industrial city like Pueblo - with the steel mill and all. There were some technical factories near Garden of the Gods that put together electronic equipment, but it wasn't the kind of operation that created pollutants and runoff.

    I don't recall there being any farms in Colorado Springs other than the turf farm. Out east are where you'd see the farms and ranches. Seems that back about 40 years ago they were prominent than today.

    Gosh, those were the days. Fresh air, peace and quiet - ahhhhh!

    Where I live, I can hear a rooster in the distance - maybe a couple of blocks away. Well, I haven't heard him lately, so maybe someone got in trouble for keeping him - but hearing that sound every morning to me is quite pleasant.
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