Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 29

Thread: Pueblo Police in the news

  1. #11
    Silver Member masonranch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,482

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Swelk View Post
    I don't believe the police carry revolvers. From the ones I have seen on the hip of many police officers they appear to be a pistol that accepts a magazine, or clip, which I think would make them a type of pistol called a semi-automatic. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I do know they aren't a revolver.
    A Ruger 9mm auto has a 15 round magazine.
    The difference between a welfare state and a totalitarian state is a matter of time - Ayn Rand

    The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests”- Patrick Henry

  2. #12
    Administrator Sandra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,683

    Default

    Loren to be honest I've not taken the time to notice what they are issued - it very well could be a semi automatic. It's good to have one of each - semi-automatics can jam, the problem with revolvers (if you can even call it a problem) is that they don't hold as many rounds.

    Large - come on, get real - is the cop supposed to wait until he is hit and then asses the level of pain to determine whether that thing he sees that looks like a gun and fires projectiles is a bb gun or a .22, .38, .45, or whatever?

    Do you really expect that the officer should take the chance and wait? From a distance you can't tell the difference anymore. And even today's real guns look like toys - they come in all kinds of colors - I've seen a Hello Kitty AK47 - it looks like a child's toy but is as real as real can be! Check this out:

    Name:  hello-kitty-ak47.jpg
Views: 1602
Size:  57.8 KB


    Sorry, but I'm on the side of the cop in this one, although if it's the same Edward Valdez that I found on facebook, I feel very bad for his family - he really did look like a nice kid. He actually has that same look on his face in that picture of him that my daughter, who is a high functioning autistic, always has on hers, so I wonder.

    But you don't go shooting out car windows and you don't point anything that even remotely looks like or is shaped like a firearm at a cop - especially one that's on duty who just caught you blowing out car windows, otherwise this can happen. When a police officer has a weapon pointing at him he doesn't have time to discern whether it's real - his training kicks in.

    I feel bad for the cop and the guy's family both - this is a tragedy all the way around - it's heartbreaking beyond words!
    Opinions expressed by me are mine only and are not in any way, shape, or form representative of the Pueblo Chieftain or Pueblo Community Forums.

  3. #13
    Forum Royalty large's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Pueblo, Colorado
    Posts
    14,078

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandra View Post
    Loren to be honest I've not taken the time to notice what they are issued - it very well could be a semi automatic. It's good to have one of each - semi-automatics can jam, the problem with revolvers (if you can even call it a problem) is that they don't hold as many rounds.

    Large - come on, get real - is the cop supposed to wait until he is hit and then asses the level of pain to determine whether that thing he sees that looks like a gun and fires projectiles is a bb gun or a .22, .38, .45, or whatever?

    Sorry, but I'm on the side of the cop in this one, although if it's the same Edward Valdez that I found on facebook, I feel very bad for his family - he really did look like a nice kid. He actually has that same look on his face in that picture of him that my daughter, who is a high functioning autistic, always has on hers, so I wonder.

    But you don't go shooting out car windows and you don't point anything that even remotely looks like or is shaped like a firearm at a cop - especially one that's on duty who just caught you blowing out car windows, otherwise this can happen. When a police officer has a weapon pointing at him he doesn't have time to discern whether it's real - his training kicks in.

    I feel bad for the cop and the guy's family both - this is a tragedy all the way around - it's heartbreaking beyond words!
    Aww, c'mon, as one who has carried a gun for over 40 years, I know for a fact that if someone is (or is intending to) shooting at me from the common average distance (20-25 feet) I'll d@mned sure know if it's a "Firearm" or a BB Gun, or for that matter, a "Pellet" gun . . Again, if you're still standing after taking one in the head, it wasn't a real gun, .22 or otherwise . . Not to mention, normally there's "muzzle blast" (Smoke, fire and, sooner or later, noise) which is absolutely noticeable . . No smoke, or muzzle blast, it wasn't a real gun . . On the other hand, if you saw no smoke, or fire, heard no blast, and it was "real", then probably you're dead . . old Hunter's rule, Know your target. If you don't know what the guy has, figure it out before you kill someone (or something) that you might not need to . . The cop failed to do a proper assessment of the situation before He/She inserted themself into it . . My bet is that the Cop did the usual "Bull in a China Shop" control routine without ever looking to see what had actually taken place . . Carrying a gun and shooting at people requires more than a badge and Chief Velez' permission . .

    And where was a "Backup Officer" which is generally demanded anytime a 911 comes in about a "Gun Involved" or "Gunfire Involved"?

    The kid was stupid . . The Cop was Stoopider! Let's hope that Cop gets to see that kid's last quiver every night for the rest of their life . . You just don't kill people for things like that!

    On the difference between Revolvers and Autos . . Autos aren't as noisy, have no side cone blast, and generally hold a lot more Ammunition. Most of the early Autos, with the exception of the 1911 Colt had problems with Hollow Point and Semi Jacketed bullets. The feed ramp angle into the barrel would hang a round if you didn't have a magazine spring that rivaled the rear spring on a 1959 Cadillac, generally about the fourth or fifth round . . The newer Autos have put the feed ramp a few thousandths of an inch further forward, changed the feed angle and lengthened the ejection port . . Most of them will crank out hundreds of rounds without ever hanging one . .

    On Capacities . . Most of the standard sized Autos, Colt, Beretta, Ruger, Glock and S&W, have 15 round magazines . . my favorite, the S&W 6906 has a 12 round clip and the lovely little Ruger LC has a 6 shot clip . . Any of which would kill someone at least three times . . . And . . once in a while some idiot (like the Theatre Shooter) will decide to use extra high capacity magazines . . Thank God . . They don't work well . . usually hanging a round after 10 or 20 shots . . don't buy 'em, don't depend on 'em. They'll get you killed . .
    "A man with a firearm is a citizen... a man without one is a subject"

  4. #14
    Forum Troll Gershon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    438

    Default

    Large,

    I think you may have hit on something with the "Bull in the China Shop" comment. It's quite possible the officer could have waited with safe cover until backup arrived, but only if the bicycle was stopped. But recall there were witnesses to the whole thing, meaning other people in the area. We can't know for sure that the kid wouldn't have aimed his gun at them.

    Your analogies are really good. They often make things clear. Fortunately, the whole thing is on video. It will likely disappear if it shows any wrongdoing.

  5. #15
    Forum Royalty large's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Pueblo, Colorado
    Posts
    14,078

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gershon View Post
    Large,

    I think you may have hit on something with the "Bull in the China Shop" comment. It's quite possible the officer could have waited with safe cover until backup arrived, but only if the bicycle was stopped. But recall there were witnesses to the whole thing, meaning other people in the area. We can't know for sure that the kid wouldn't have aimed his gun at them.

    Your analogies are really good. They often make things clear. Fortunately, the whole thing is on video. It will likely disappear if it shows any wrongdoing.
    If you've been trained well, One, you want to avoid gunfights, and two, you don't want to be standing someplace where you can get shot in the head . . What the hell was this cop thinking? If you tend to believe that someone has a firearm and could be a danger to you or the population in general, don't stand there with your finger in your butt and let him shoot you in the head . . And, yes, he should have had backup. The kid was shooting glass, not a @ss, so the cop should have observed and witnessed until the shooter either put someone in danger or the backup got there . .

    And . . you have to think, this kid was either a crack shot, or really close, or the cop was a d@mned fool . . Think about it . . Here's a guy riding down the street on a bicycle, shooting out tempered glass car windows, no muzzle blast, fire or smoke . . You jump out of your car and (apparently) stand there like a cardboard target, and, apparently, say something that makes him shoot at you . . and hits you . . by now, if you haven't figured out that he has a BB Gun or a pellet pistol, then you don't have enough sense to come in out of the rain . . And d@mned sure shouldn't be wearing a Badge . . or carrying a gun . .

    Then you shoot him 6 times with a .40 caliber Semi-Auto pistol and say it was Justified? I just can't screw this around in my head and make it come out right, or at least in favor of the cop . . A 2" X 3.5" piece of tin on the left breast doesn't make you bullet proof nor does it make you a judge and jury . . And to shoot any human being 6 times with a .40 Cal Hollow Point isn't self defense. It's, at best, incompetence!

    Add to that, then, the Police explanation about leaving the body exposed, for over four hours . . "Because it required a thorough investigation" . . bullcrap! How much investigation was needed? The Coroner will count the holes, the IAB will count the cartridge casings, and measure the distances involved. We'll talk to the witnesses at the Police Station . . And of course, take a picture of the welt on the cop's head from the BB hit . . Fer Chrissake, you'd think they were investigating the Kennedy Assassination . . I think it was a CYA moment . . .
    "A man with a firearm is a citizen... a man without one is a subject"

  6. #16
    Administrator Sandra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,683

    Default

    Large, the cop was a 2 year veteran - he doesn't have the experience you have.

    As for waiting for cover - idunno about that one - he caught him in the process of shooting out car windows - and that's how that confrontation began - sometimes you don't have time to wait for back up - he got hit with a bb - how did he know it wasn't a bullet? Granted a bb won't do as much damage, but neither does a bullet if it just grazes you.

    If this is the same fella that I found on facebook (and it might not be) there is a picture of a gun on his facebook with rounds near it. I know that they do make bb guns and pellet guns that look like that, I've seen them in the stores. They look real except for a bright red piece that can easily be broken off.

    Anyway - I don't know - I wasn't there - but I do know that cops are trained not to wait if they see a weapon pointed at them. I think for us to expect anything different might be a display that we watch too many cop shows on tv. One person on one of the sites wanted to know why the cop didn't just shoot the guy in the kneecaps - that's a tv thing.

    I don't like that this person is dead, I don't like that the cop used so many rounds, but if it were me I might have done the same thing. I wouldn't have taken any chances either, and I'm not going to waste good adrenaline on only 2 rounds.

    At the same time, I'm not exactly trigger happy, either - and I'm thinking that cop feels pretty darned bad right now. He's probably second guessing himself and everything. I know I would be - I defended myself once by hitting a guy on the head and he bled - I felt terrible! I felt like I had done something terribly wrong and that I was lower than dirt - but I wasn't going to let him beat me up, either.

    I don't think the cop got off on shooting the other guy - and I feel bad for him, although I do feel pretty bad for the family of the deceased - my heart breaks for them - they lost a son that day - they didn't even get him to the hospital to try to revive him - they just let him lay there while they investigated - sometimes a body seems to have no life and no pulse but there may still be life - so that part bothers me, too. It's as if they didn't bother to try, but again, I don't know, I wasn't there - I just feel bad for all who were involved. I don't like that this guy was shot, but I can understand the position the cop was in as well.

    And you know me, Large - you once labeled me as "anti-cop" because of how critical I can be when I feel they've done wrong. If I thought this cop acted blatantly I'd be all over that like gravy on mashed taters, and you know that about me.
    Opinions expressed by me are mine only and are not in any way, shape, or form representative of the Pueblo Chieftain or Pueblo Community Forums.

  7. #17
    Forum Royalty large's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Pueblo, Colorado
    Posts
    14,078

    Default

    Large, the cop was a 2 year veteran - he doesn't have the experience you have.
    That has nothing to do with it . . If you're carrying a gun, part of the responsibility you're charged with is to use it only as a Last Resort . . This cop had several other avenues before he resorted to deadly force . . He chose to kill somebody over broken windows and lack of observation . . Experience is something acquired over time, Common sense is something you have to have to start with . . and if he stood still and presented himself as a target when he believed the gun to be real, well, then he's far too stupid to be given the responsibility of carrying a gun. Add to that, according to the paper, the first shot hit the kid in the @ss or the back . . And a correction, there were EIGHT shots fired, not six, as KOAA reported . .

    Bottom line, anytime anyone fires more than two or three shots in self defense, they haven't received enough training and they haven't learned to be proficient with the weapon that must save their lives . . too much time in the Donut Shoppe and not enough on the range . . If you choose to carry a gun, or your job requires it, your ability to use it must become another reflexive action wherein hitting a four inch circle at 21 feet is not just an idea but a necessity. That ability should go with the cop every day, without fail. On the Pueblo Police Force, not so much. There are those who are outstanding marksmen, but they are few and far between. It would scare the average citizen to know how many cops can barely qualify with a large caliber handgun . . yet carry them and (as we have seen) use them, again, as we have seen . . without full training, ability or understanding of other options . . too few people realize, when they pull the slide back and release it, stripping a round off the top of the magazine and shoving it into the chamber, that they are preparing to kill a human being . . Because a hand gun isn't carried to keep you from being blown about by the wind or to make you look like a badass when you get out of a Blue and White . . it's for protection from deadly force . . Anything short of that requires other options . .
    "A man with a firearm is a citizen... a man without one is a subject"

  8. #18
    Administrator Sandra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,683

    Default

    When you've been shot twice, what do you consider a last resort?
    Opinions expressed by me are mine only and are not in any way, shape, or form representative of the Pueblo Chieftain or Pueblo Community Forums.

  9. #19
    Forum Royalty large's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Pueblo, Colorado
    Posts
    14,078

    Default

    In my case, it would have to depend upon what I was "Shot" with, first of all. The next thing I would start trying to do is get the Hell out of his target area. When you're two shots down in a "Gunfight" the first priority is to make d@mned sure he doesn't shoot you three times. Then figure out how (and who) to shoot back . . In all of this you should be assessing what he's shooting at you with, so you have some idea of accuracy and timing to return fire. Problem is, most people, including, apparently, the Police, believe in the "Mel Gibson" Defense, which is, don't look for a target, just poke the gun in the general direction and dump 3 or 4 clips of 15 rounds each . . You'll hit something, after all, they do in the movies . .

    Back to square one on this particular incident. How in the hell does a cop get shot twice with a BB Gun and fail to realize that is what the "Weapon" is . . ? Might even go as far as ask, How the Hell does a cop get shot with a BB Gun? According to the report, there was an apparent confrontation between the two before the kid shot the cop with the BB Gun, so at that point, the cop should have been doing some assessment on the danger of the situation. Apparently he didn't. Then after he was shot, he still failed to assess the situation correctly and resorted to the last resort. Add in the fact that he didn't use targeting or deliberation in his use of his sidearm and I'll show you a person who shouldn't have a firearm in any circumstance. The Cop posed a greater danger to the general populace than did the kid with the BB Gun . .

    Prove me wrong . . .

    And, one more time . . Anytime a shooter cannot account for all the shots fired from his/her weapon, they either shouldn't be allowed to have a gun or should receive extensive training before being allowed access to a gun again . . When anyone fires a firearm, for any reason, they, and they alone are responsible for the bullet fired until it becomes a still and inert object. And firing eight shots in the general direction of someone in a densely populated area is totally irresponsible . . Doesn't matter who you are . .
    "A man with a firearm is a citizen... a man without one is a subject"

  10. #20
    Administrator Sandra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,683

    Default

    Prove you wrong? You're making an assertion. It's your responsibility to present evidence to back those, not mine.
    Opinions expressed by me are mine only and are not in any way, shape, or form representative of the Pueblo Chieftain or Pueblo Community Forums.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •